Religion and the death penalty.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)

But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.

Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?

• Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
• Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
• Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
• Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
• Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
• Atheists also have many views on the matter.

So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?


**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.

Comments

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I think between the options of life in prison with no possibility of parole and the death penalty, I'd choose the lethal injection. Is it more humane to keep people in cages for 50+ years or just admit that since we will never release them back into the world, just end it?

And yes, it sits a lot better when we're only executing the guilty.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Do you think anyone would choose death over life in prison? I wouldn't.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Well maybe it'll sound unfair to their victims, but these criminals could be presented with a choice: die now, or rot in a cell for the rest of your life (with an option to ask for death at any given moment). How about this idea?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God

So the state should refrain from any sort of retributive justice, what sort of justice does the state dole out in non-capital punishment cases?

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Restore rehabilitate, protect the innocent.

Jail terms, punitive damages, community service can all serve this purpose.

[uses4safetypins.livejournal.com]

We need reform not punishment.

[laurenigmatic.livejournal.com]

Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?

Well that would be anyone who is not religious and against the death penalty, right?

Do people find no guidance in religion? Seems that way sometimes...usually in the political realm, religion is manipulated in order justify immoral acts. Should people find guidance in religion when dealing with policy? I personally think no, not at all. A lot of ideas within specific religions are impractical, anti-humanistic and obscure, so if you remove all that noise, what do you have? You have basic human ideals not specific to any religion. Also, many of these ideals can and do exist without religion - like the golden rule for instance. I'm an atheist and a big believer in the golden rule. No need to look to religion for inspiration to be good or do what's right for humankind.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

You have basic human ideals not specific to any religion.
False. The constitutive and conceptual frameworks between cultures regarding morality are really quite striking at times.

No need to look to religion for inspiration to be good or do what's right for humankind.
Yeah, but that is sort of the question at hand, isn't it? What is good or right for humankind? This just seems like a parenthetical, rhetorical remark that neatly removes the issue at hand from any clear or direct scrutiny. But you just know, right? "Remove all that noise" and you have... your opinion... and your opinion just happens to be what is right and good for humankind! Huzzah! Well that was easy. On to the next thing!

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Well that would be anyone who is not religious and against the death penalty, right?

I don't follow, if I'm not religious than I must believe that there is no such thing as sin or just that the death penalty might not be a sin? Not being religious doesn't entail a lack of belief in moral law or moral constraints.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

You can find guidance in religion, the way you can find guidance in a fiction book, or a scientific theory, or your grandma's dinner table fables. You can find guidance in whatever you choose, and religion is what you choose it to be. If the religious teachings you have encountered didn't match with your philosophical notions, you're free to ignore those religious teachings and stick to your philosophical notions. You're totally free from any bounds. Religion should be there for comfort, often guidance, but never for shoving someone else's ethic into your throat. In this sense, I understand that religion could be very useful, or could be very harmful - depends how it is used. And I'm saying it as a complete atheist - by choice.

[prader.livejournal.com]

So some atheists do choose to be atheists.

Interesting.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I can't say that I have a visceral reaction against capital punishment. My general belief is that those who are given the legal powers to take life should be liable to the death penalty. For instance, police, soldiers, and stuff like that. I'm not so much for the death penalty in the civilian world, but I'm totally for the death penalty in the military and war time.

I don't really have a cogent view on it at the time. Discussing our actual, current situation is way different that discussing it theoretically.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

"war time" is a whole other ball of wax.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?

This is where I sit. I'm an atheist, so sin doesn't really play into it, but I've become uncomfortable with the idea of the state having the final say on the life and death of its people.

I used to be pretty pro-death penalty, but that aspect of it finally turned me around a few years back.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

A personal experience? Sorry for asking about private things, don't answer if it's too personal.

[http://users.livejournal.com/little_e_/]

Ultimately, I think people chose religious views which match their personal ones, not the other way around. So people who are okay with killing people will justify it via religion, and people who aren't okay with it will find religious reasons not to be.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

True - they choose their views, but only to some extent, and certainly after some point in life. Until then, in many cases they're subject to domestic brainwashing.

[jennem.livejournal.com]

Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally. Citation needed.

Last time I checked, the Vatican opposed the death penalty.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

They do oppose it and the U.S. Conference of Bishops has been very active in their protests about it for the last 25 years. (http://usccb.org/deathpenalty/)

[jennem.livejournal.com]

I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other?

I imagine it's similar to how thy deal with other conflicting religious and philosophical viewpoints (birth control, women's rights, gay marriage, ect.). Primarily, I think a lot of young people have dealt with this by becoming less "religious," but still maintaining their "spirituality."

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Actually, the Catholic Church rejects the death penalty (and the war in Iraq). For some reason the people in the USA who are the most vocal tend to focus only on opposition to abortion and ignore they should be by all rights both anti-war and anti-death penalty.

And given the origins of the Southern Baptist Convention, I am never surprised to see them take a reactionary POV that encourages death.

You should make no more of differences among religions than say, you'd make of differences among Marxists. There are real differences between say, those few die-hard Luxemburgists & Stalinists, the Trotskyists, and the Maoists. People have died over these disputes, sometimes to the tune of millions strong, but nobody cares about these. Hmm...wonder why?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

What religion posits this?

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Christianity, possibly others.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

A thoughtful post, but I would like to respond to a related point. You said:
We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.
Just wondering - are you for or against criminal punishment for all instances of potentially victimless crimes like drug use, prostitution, etc.? I know that not all instances are victimless, but should our criminal system judge based on whether another person is hurt, or can/should we criminalize instances of voluntary prostitution, voluntary recreational drug use, based on their potential ability to cause harm? It's one of the bigger questions in my current criminal law class, and the idea of retributive vs. deterrent/behavior-disruptive purposes for the law has a surprising impact on everything from who you charge to how you interpret laws and rights. So I apologize if it's a bit off-topic, but the question interests me.

That said, in response to the main question: I'm a humanist (generally). I do not believe in the death penalty, because it will never be perfectly applied. Were it perfectly and justly applied, then I'd be all right with it, but I don't think perfect justice is possible, and so irrevocable actions should not be taken. Even in a life sentence, the individual gets review in the form of periodic parole hearings, constant chances for appeal on some grounds, that sort of thing. Moreover, they may benefit from advances in science and technology, and advances in our legal understanding of justice (see the ban on the death penalty for juveniles). In no case can an executed person so benefit.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

Gah... screwed up the tag, and can't edit. Ah well, you get the point.

Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Your church sounds like a very loving-Christian environment. Where do they stand on abortion and missionary work?

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

You want to know about the missionary position?

**

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

More whites are executed than blacks. As much as 4 points more whites than blacks.
http://www.naacpldf.org/content.aspx?article=297


Men murder on average 8 times for every murder perpetrated by a woman. The homicide rate "gender gap" hasn't closed over the years. In fact it has increased, and this despite a decline in number of homicides. In 1976 the ratio of male murderers to female was 5 to 1. By 1999 it was 9 to1 and at its peak, in 1995, it reached a surprisingly high 11 to 1 ratio.

http://social.jrank.org/pages/1253/Violent-Crime-Gender-Differences-in-Violent-Crime-Offenders.html

So to say that the death penalty is anti-male is statistically inaccurate. Women commit far fewer violent crimes that warrant the death penalty.

Re: **

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

The anti-male thing I was talking about relates to the objects some have to women getting the death penalty.

women account for about 1 in 10 (10%) murder arrests;
women account for only 1 in 50 (2%) death sentences imposed at the trial level;
women account for only 1 in 67 (1.5%) persons presently on death row; and
women account for only 1 in 100 (1%) persons actually executed in the modern era.

A lot of this has to do with the sexist ideas I mention in the OP.

As for black people and the death penalty-- black people are more likely to be sentenced to the death penalty after being arrested.

[headhouse.livejournal.com]

I'm okay with the death penalty (when guilt is clear and incontrovertible), not based on retribution or on deterrence, but on practicality. Housing one prisoner for life is expensive. Putting prisoners with no possibility of parole in the same population as people you're trying to rehabilitate is just shooting yourself in the foot. And it gives the victim's family a much stronger sense of closure.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

"And it gives the victim's family a much stronger sense of closure."

Isn't this "retribution" ??