talkpolitics | Religion and the death penalty.

futurebird.livejournal.com posting in

I'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)

But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.

Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?

Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
Atheists also have many views on the matter.

So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?

**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

futurebird.livejournal.com

What has "the hope of the believer" got to do with any of this?

From:

pastorlenny.livejournal.com

"Going to heaven" as a reward for whatever.

From:

futurebird.livejournal.com

It's not a reward.

From:

pastorlenny.livejournal.com

Forgive me for misinterpreting the sentence "God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven" as implying a just punishment and a just reward. Perhaps you would like to clarify for me what you actually meant.

Edited Date: 9/3/10 02:29 (UTC)

From:

futurebird.livejournal.com

The point is we can't know if a person is going to heaven or not by their actions or even by what they say. God knows this and what God decides will be perfect.

From:

pastorlenny.livejournal.com

I'm sorry, but that's not what the sentence says at all. It implies that there is a certain "justice" to what God decides -- meaning that hell is a just punishment and heaven is a just reward.

If you meant to simply state that only God knows where someone is going, then you could have written "Only God knows where someone is going." Instead you used the term "justice" -- and linked it logically to sinners being "sent" to hell and righteous people similarly being "sent" to heaven.

What does the word "justice" have to do with what you are now asserting is simply a statement about the mystery of God's decision-making?

From:

futurebird.livejournal.com

I was just trying to make the point that we can abstain from vengeance since God's justice is perfect.

From:

pastorlenny.livejournal.com

OK, so now you're bringing justice back into it. So the statement is not jus about mystery. It's about some assertino that when God "sends" people to one place or the other, He is doing so because of "justice."

Again, this doesn't seem to bear much relationship to the gospel. Is justice really the over-riding principle of the Kingdom that Jesus preached? Is justice the central theme of the parables? How much does Paul talk about justice? The word certainly doesn't seem to appear in the epistles at all.

Is that what you trust in? God's justice?

From:

futurebird.livejournal.com

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that we know God must exist because without God there would be no justice. God is vengeful against his enemies, namely unrepentant sinners. Vengeance belongs to God.

From:

pastorlenny.livejournal.com

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that we know God must exist because without God there would be no justice.

Yes, well the idea that God likes us to exercise justice is quite a different thing than to claim that our gospel is about justice.

God is vengeful against his enemies, namely unrepentant sinners.

How odd. I thought that while we were yet sinners, He died for us. Have you read Romans 5 lately?

From:

futurebird.livejournal.com

Romans 12?

From:

pastorlenny.livejournal.com

Yes, Paul quotes the Hebrew scriptures to point out that God is the one with the right to take vengeance. The fact that He chooses not to unleash that vengeance -- despite His perfect right to do so -- because of His over-riding mercy is pretty evident from the cross. Also see II Peter 3:

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

From:

futurebird.livejournal.com

that's why I said "unrepentant sinners"

From:

pastorlenny.livejournal.com

No, He withholds judgment on unrepentant sinners as well -- in order to give them the fullness of time in which to repent. He died for unrepentant sinners. While He was with us, he dined and fellowshipped with unrepentant sinners. He loves unrepentant sinners. Those are the ones He goes after.

See Luke 15.