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talkpoliticsI'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)
But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.
Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?
So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?
**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.
But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.
Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?
- Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
- Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
- Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
- Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
- Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
- Atheists also have many views on the matter.
So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?
**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.
(no subject)
Date: 8/3/10 23:42 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 9/3/10 00:33 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 9/3/10 01:21 (UTC)Retribution is done ONLY to placate the emotional desires of people hurt by a crime and the desires of the public who may find the crime horrible and disgusting.
(no subject)
Date: 9/3/10 14:35 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 10/3/10 05:12 (UTC)Vengeance belongs only to God. Though some people try to take it anyway.
Vengeance may not mean "pay back" it's whatever is fitting in the eyes of God. It might not be what we expect... we will not know what happens most likely. I don't think we should worry about it. It's for God to decide.
(no subject)
Date: 10/3/10 05:25 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 10/3/10 05:50 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 10/3/10 05:57 (UTC)Well, now at least we are getting somewhere.
Do you think that the meaning there is that we should seek payback?
It depends who you mean by "we." If you means disciples of Christ living under the new covenant, then no. But that's not because God was telling the children of Israel to be unjust. So if we can assume for the moment that God was describing divine justice in those OT verses I cited, why would Jesus tell His disciples to do otherwise? Is it because He disagreed with the Father? Is it because He had an unjust agenda? Or can you think of another reason?
Or maybe only under some circumstances? If so what would they be?
No. But these are the kinds of questions a pharisaical legalist would be inclined to ask.
(no subject)
Date: 10/3/10 06:58 (UTC)I may be getting somewhere you are still condescending. It's annoying.
No. But these are the kinds of questions a pharisaical legalist would be inclined to ask.
I'm not asking those questions to make a point or to "trap" you-- I really don't know what you are trying to communicate to me here. So, I'm asking. Clearly, you think I'm wrong about what justice and vengeance are in this context-- So in your opinion what are the and why is the difference significant?
(no subject)
Date: 10/3/10 14:01 (UTC)The questions are not pharisaical because of any apparent intent to "trap" anyone. They are pharsaical because they come from a legalistic mindset -- trying to figure out the rules and the exceptions to the rules. And they onec again betray the absence of mercy and grace from your non-gospel.
And it is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of rather basic Christian doctrine.
Consider the account of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. Those who wished to stone the woman asked Jesua about the Law. Jesus did not deny the Law. He did not deny its justice. What He did was add the element of mercy and grace. The new commandment that Jesus adds to to the law is also a law of love, mercy and grace.
It would be beneficial to you and to those to whom you attempt to present the "religious" ideas of Christianity if you came to understand this mercy, this undeserved favor, and the great love God manifested when He died on the cross to redeem you from your sin.