Religion and the death penalty.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)

But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.

Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?

• Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
• Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
• Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
• Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
• Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
• Atheists also have many views on the matter.

So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?


**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.

Comments

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

No, I have not said anything false about evangelicals. In fact, you continue to prove my point.

Notice that Acts 2:42 makes reference to the apostles' doctrine. So any rejection of the apostles' doctrine is a rejection of the Church that Christ is building.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'm saying that certain asp;ects of their core doctrine is egregiously false.

Which ones?

So any rejection of the apostles' doctrine is a rejection of the Church that Christ is building.

When I said the apostles might not recognize it, I said that because they are men and it's been a long time. Jesus would.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Which ones?

Certainly the very one you've presented to us here: a cross-less salvation.

When I said the apostles might not recognize it, I said that because they are men and it's been a long time.

What would that have to do with anything? They wouldn't recognize what you wrote in the OP because it doesn't bear any resemblance to what they taught.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Certainly the very one you've presented to us here: a cross-less salvation.

I don't know where you are getting this from.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

The fact that you never once mentioned the cross. I know you know it exists -- and I'm sure you give lip serviec to it now and then. But, when push came to shove and someone like me challenged your assertions about salvation, you never once gave it even a passing reference.

I'm sorry, but you need to look at that. It is an egregious problem. I know you want to keep defending yoruself. But this is not the time to defend yourself. It is time to repent and admit that you are counting on your faith and your works to make you one of the "righteous ones" who God will "send to heaven" because of His "perfect justice." These are your won words, not mine. And they are not the gospel.

Have you heard to "The Prodigal God" by Tim Keller? It's a nice, short, engaging read. I highly recommend it to you. It might be a good study for your whole congregation.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I don't assume I will go to heaven.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I didn't say you did. I was pointing out how your words expressed the idea that those who do go to heaven do so because God's justice mandates it. This means that if you were to go to heaven, you would be trusting God's justice to send you there.

The idea of teh gospel, however, is that we throw ourselves on God's mercy.

But I'm done here. I think I've invested enough time and energy into trying to get you to simply look at the notable absence of the atoning work of Christ on the cross in your discussion of this topic. I'll go pray for you and yoru congregation now and then head off to dreamland.

See you 'round.