Religion and the death penalty.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)

But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.

Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?

• Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
• Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
• Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
• Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
• Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
• Atheists also have many views on the matter.

So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?


**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.

Comments

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I can't tell you why you're confused. Perhaps you've never attended a congregation where there was ever any actual catechesis.

Many people follow whatever folk religion they choose to follow and don't actually ever study Christian theology. And many pastors are too busy trying to "Christianize" people to ever teach them the gospel -- assuming they know it themselves.

But I doubt you'd see anyone who has spent any time in a church that does even rudimentary catechesis ever say something about good people earning their way to heaven with good behavior and bad people being sent to hell as punishment for bad behavior.

Certainly even the most cursory examination of scripture would reveal, for example, that Jesus promised one of the twocriminals crucified alongside Him that "this day you will be with me in Paradise."

Was that criminal a morally "righteous" person? Why would Jesus have promised him a place in Paradise if the Christian religion teaches that bad people go to the other place?

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

"But I doubt you'd see anyone who has spent any time in a church that does even rudimentary catechesis ever say something about good people earning their way to heaven with good behavior and bad people being sent to hell as punishment for bad behavior."

Um. That's not what I said. I said:

"Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which."

This isn't about behavior it's about the person's standing with God at the moment of death. Did they accept Christ and repent? Did they just *say* that they did? And that acceptance goes beyond some ceremonial act. it could be that one finds that one must live their life differently after accepting God. I certainly found this to be the case. The acceptance could take a form that you or I might not even know about.

The example of the criminals from the crucifixion goes along with the whole point of this post-- we don't know who should be punished becuase we are not God. A person could seem like a criminal and still go to heaven. A person could be a priest who has always done "good deeds" and still go to hell.

I should have acknowledged, though, that all people are sinners.

(Also, I think you come across as condescending. Just a little, it's possible to share knowledge without doing that. )

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

This isn't about behavior it's about the person's standing with God at the moment of death. Did they accept Christ and repent? Did they just *say* that they did? And that acceptance goes beyond some ceremonial act.

OK, so now you're defining "righteousness" as "the person's standing with God." This does not seem to me to be a normative definition of the word. You may be speaking about some form of purely imputed righteousness, I suppose.

Plus, your reference to "some ceremonial act" seems to imply a rejection of orthodox sacramental Christianity. And there doesn't seem to be anything here that aligns with a basic bit of scripture such as John 15:16.

But this is not a theology community -- so I don't think it is appropriate to get into this topic here. I would, however, in the future be a little more careful about making assertions concerning the core teachings of the Christian faith.

And, FYI, the hope of the believer is not heaven when you die. Consider, for example, I Thessalonians 2:19.

I hope you can forgive me for my apparently condescending tone.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

What has "the hope of the believer" got to do with any of this?

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

"Going to heaven" as a reward for whatever.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

It's not a reward.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Forgive me for misinterpreting the sentence "God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven" as implying a just punishment and a just reward. Perhaps you would like to clarify for me what you actually meant.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

The point is we can't know if a person is going to heaven or not by their actions or even by what they say. God knows this and what God decides will be perfect.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry, but that's not what the sentence says at all. It implies that there is a certain "justice" to what God decides -- meaning that hell is a just punishment and heaven is a just reward.

If you meant to simply state that only God knows where someone is going, then you could have written "Only God knows where someone is going." Instead you used the term "justice" -- and linked it logically to sinners being "sent" to hell and righteous people similarly being "sent" to heaven.

What does the word "justice" have to do with what you are now asserting is simply a statement about the mystery of God's decision-making?

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[http://users.livejournal.com/little_e_/]

"Scripture" is not the same as "religion". The fault in your argument is that you have confused the two.
Most Christians don't follow the Christian scriptures and see no need to.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

No, that's actually the point I was making. The failure to actually study scripture is precisely one of the reasons I just cited for attachment to "folk" versions of Christianity.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

study of scripture won't always result in the same conclusions.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

No, there will certianly be room for disagreement. But it's a good place to at least start. And a well-directed study of scripture will certainly prevent one from making assertions about God sending people who do bad things to hell when they die.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

also, are you saying that most Christians are practicing a "folk version of the religion"?

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I don't have statistical basis for quantifying this. But it certainly seems as though American evangelicalism is a "folk" version of Christianity with little connection to its 2000 years of established orthodoxy.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Ah, I knew we agreed, it's just the terms :D

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Yeah, let's see if the OP wants to continue dialog or not. The last thing I asked him was what the name "Jesus" means.

I know it seems bizarre -- but sometimes, when attempting to understand Christianity, a good starting point can be the person of the Christ.

Weird theology! :P

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

That's probably for the best. Religions change over time-- in some time periods they have changed more than in others. (Also, I'm a she not a he.)

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

No, I doubt very much that it's "for the best" that Christianity would turn into something that neither the Christ nor His apostles would recognize as the truth.

This is not to say that the Church should in no way respond to certain changes in its environment -- but the abandonment of the basic tenets of the faith Jesus and His apostles taught is not a good thing.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Christ would recognize it... his apostles might not. Don't be fooled in to thinking that evangelicals, or progressive Christians don't have any core doctrine. The priesthood of all believers ensures we don't ever lose our connection with God, as long as we are honest in our faith. Many are not and try to rationalize... everything. I'm probably not exempt from that-- but it is just as easy to do with more elaborate prescripts doctrine as it is with less.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[http://users.livejournal.com/little_e_/]

It's all Christianity.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

So quackery is also "medicine?" And organized crime is also a "business?"

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[http://users.livejournal.com/little_e_/]

Nice try, but no, you don't get to decide whose belief in invisible sky fairies is most legit.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I didn't claim such authority. But if you're unable to distinguish between "invisible sky fairies" and "the Triune God," then I suppose you're not actually up for a serious conversation on the topic.

Re: God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven

[http://users.livejournal.com/little_e_/]

Your version of Christianity is no better or more accurate than anyone eles's. It doesn't matter that you happen to believe in it or have fancy names for it.