Religion and the death penalty.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)

But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.

Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?

• Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
• Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
• Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
• Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
• Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
• Atheists also have many views on the matter.

So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?


**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.

Comments

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Well I hope you can appreciate that as a non-Christian, suspecting that I might do something to change my eternal fate from purgatory to paradise could be a highly motivating.

But it seems to me that the conclusion of this discussion is essentially that I shouldn't worry about going to Heaven at all, especially as it would seem that even being a non-Christian is not necessarily a barrier to getting into Heaven.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Yes, well if you're just looking for someone to sell you "fire insurance" for the afterlife, I would definitely not recommend talking to an authentic Christian. But the evangelicals will be happy to pray a little prayer with you and then tell you you're "saved." So go see them.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

These evangelicals you are speaking of, would they be what I consider neo-evangelicals? Perhaps I will ask this on your LJ tomorrow (church leaGUE SOFTBALL TONIGHT :d) and we can discuss that separately.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Can you be more specific about who you are talking about?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

It seems rather plain: people who pray a prayer with you and then tell you you're "saved" as a result of praying that prayer.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

We can only know for ourselves if we have accepted Christ or not.

Maybe some people do that, but you might be misreading how some church services work? In my church, which is Baptist, people make a lot of noise-- it helps to recommit our hearts to God. It's also fun and very social. Many people "feel the spirit of God" they have been saved or rescued from the darkness of a life without God. But it's not like you just get to go to heaven then becuase you went through the motions. Really, in some sense, you are closer to heaven since, if honest you have become closer to God. -- not even Baptism will guarantee that you are saved... Some people have been baptized a few times since it didn't take at first or they wandered away from the Church. That's also called being "born again" or saved. It's not a magic ticket to heaven, though.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Notice how much you discuss salvation without mentioning the Christ or His cross.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I assume you'd know that was essential-- I was trying to explain how your "prayers in exchange for heaven" characterization of all evangelical regions totally missed the mark.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

This has nothing to do with what you need to assume I do or don't know. Your entire discussion of salvation has failed to mention the cross at all. You did not fail to mention the cross because of your assumptions about what I do or don't know. You failed to mention it because you are trusting yourself for your salvation. You are trusting your own belief and your own good works. You think God saves because of justice. But this is completely wrong. God saves because of mercy.

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

"Good works" have nothing to do with it! And it's beyond annoying when you tell me what I'm trying to do-- I know that, not you. You say "I'm trusting my own belief" -- if you know evangelicals, so well, then what is that belief in?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

No, it's completely evident that you think salvation is a matter of justice. You've said so repeatedly -- while neglecting altogether to mention the cross. I gave you plenty of opportunities to mention it. That's one of the reasons I held off on bringing it up for this long. Your failure to make any reference to the death of God on the cross out of His love for sinners is a plain diagnostic that your gospel is faulty. I pray that you gain a new revelation of His mercy and grace.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

No, it's completely evident that you think salvation is a matter of justice.

No, I don't. And if you think that's what evangelicals think you need to believe in to be saved you are totally incorrect.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

And yet it is precisely what you keep stating. And, no, I don't think that is what evangelicals believe generally. Like any category of belief, it has its variants. But, again, your ongoing failure to give the sacrifice of Christ on the cross even a passing mention is plain evidence that your gospel is not the gospel of the apostles.

Instead of continuing to debate with me, you should really focus on fixing that.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree, that's exactly the kind of line you'll get out of Evangelicals. "Join our religion, do X, Y and Z and you'll enjoy an agreeable afterlife".

And I fully appreciate this is not your position on what the correct interpretation of the bible is.

But as you say, this is precisely what Evangelicals (and the religious leaders of many other common demoninations) often tell potential new and existing adherents. Which was basically the original point being made.

It may not be the strictly accurate interpretation of the bible, but it is very frequently heard. I personally have been to Christian religious meetings a grand total of 4 times in my life, plus 1 mandatory pre-marriage counselling session, which happened to be with my wife's minister, and each time I heard exactly this notion being put to adherents more or less explicitly and addressed to me as a non-Christian in particular.

I'm already quite certain that there's no reason to expect any kind of continuance of consciousness after death, so it's not really a concern for me personally, but it is a concern that these ministers of various religions don't feel any compunction about using the lure of heaven to draw in people who don't know any better.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Yes, well, all the meetings you've been to were probably in American evangelical congregations. "Evangelical" is not a denomination. It is a descriptive term for a certain movement within Protestantism.

I do believe there is an afterlife, by the way -- and I hope to experience the upside of it. I am hopeful about your place there as well.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Yes, well, all the meetings you've been to were probably in American evangelical congregations.

Unlikely, as I'm an Australian. They were Catholic in one case, Baptist in another and I think they were Anglican in the other cases.

"Evangelical" is not a denomination. It is a descriptive term for a certain movement within Protestantism.

Of course, but I think it's fair to describe a particular denomination or group of denominations as Evangelical or Evangelists.

I do believe there is an afterlife, by the way -- and I hope to experience the upside of it. I am hopeful about your place there as well.

And similarly I believe that death is the completion of the great journey. I do appreciate your thoughts for me however and in the same spirit of amicus, I hope that when you die, you feel that death is not a time of judgement or fear, but the simply the ultimate fulfillment of your life.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

He doesn't know much about evangelicals.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Thi seems like another false statement on your part. I've been in leadership at an evangelical congregation, and I am currently in a leadership position in three ecumenical organizations that are primarily made up of evangelicals.

But if you would like to point out a specific error I've made, please feel free to do so.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

You accused me of believing in a "Christ-less salvation?"

Maybe I'm misreading you, but many of you posts have been along the lines of "you and evangelicals like you don't do Christianity correctly becuase you don't place enough emphasis on the crucifixion-- " You went so far as to call any comments I do make on the matter "lip-service" which is, frankly, really insulting.

Just stop and think about what it like to have something that is a central part of your faith called "lip-service" ?

Your whole tone has been like "there are a bunch of idiots like futurebird in evangelical churches and aren't they so awful!"

You are right that not everyone is an expert on religion and many think they can pick-and choose religious philosophy like they are customizing their ipod or something-- but, that kind of superficial faith is by no means limited to or even representative of evangelicals! In fact, to get back to the point of this post... what about the Catholics who think the Death penalty is fine? Or those who see nothing wrong with abortion?

Also, part of the problem is that you are using a lot of jargon that I'm unfamiliar with and, I'm still learning how to talk about religion so I have made poor word choices. And I value your criticisms that have been about making key concepts more precise. I o want to listen to what you have to say and consider it... but... you are bad at communicating with and understating laypersons when they talk about religion. You have been plopping down straw men left and right-- as if you knew what I'm talking about... but you don't. It's almost like you are just ignoring what I'm saying and having a conversation with someone else...

So, I don't think you are going to be any good at understating what is going and what is important in evangelical churches like the one I am a member of.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

The problem is not "poor word choices" or "making key concepts more precise." It is the complete omission of the Christ, the cross, and the mercy of God from a presentation of the gospel.

I'm ignoring much of what you're saying, because it's not relevant. The topics at hand seems to be the Christ, the cross, and the mercy of God. If you have something to say about those -- instead of "what is important in evangelical churches (which apparently, if one is to go by your comments, is something other than the Christ, the cross, and the mercy of God) -- I am all ears.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

It is the complete omission of the Christ, the cross, and the mercy of God from a presentation of the gospel.

I was not "presenting the gospels" even so... It's not a "complete omission"

http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/433023.html?thread=30430847#t30430847

and there are others.

The topics at hand seems to be the Christ, the cross, and the mercy of God.

The topic was the death penalty. And, if you came to my ~~evangelical~~ church you would find that our deacons and our pastor, when talking about the death penalty, remind us to remember that Jesus was sentenced to death and he suffered in death and he was tortured-- So, what we have seen in this countries recent history is nothing new. People can be so cruel to each other and some of it is injustice even we can recognize. Yet even this sin which must be the worst imaginable may be forgiven.

what is important in evangelical churches (which apparently, if one is to go by your comments, is something other than the Christ, the cross, and the mercy of God)

Where are you getting this from?

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

What is remarkable about the link you've included here is that it only confirms how egregiously you minimize the part Christ has played in your salvation. That comment talks about what you do -- repent -- not what Christ did.

Where are you getting this from?

From the fact that you refuse to participate in a discussion of the Christ, the cross, and the mercy of God. You just keep defending, minimizing, rationalizing, and avoiding. Why not just admit that your gospel is blatantly defective -- and sincerely commit to correcting the problem?

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

You have asked me why I won't "admit that my gospel is blatantly defective" when I still don't understand what these horrible errors are? Just becuase you told me too? Even though you have done a poor job of trying to understand what I'm talking about and mischaracterized things that I have said repeatedly?

I'm certian that I've made errors, I an not an expert on religion. I still don't know which ones you are recognizing or what they are. It's not clear to me if you think I'm wrong or if you think my whole church is wrong.

I also don't know if you agree with anything I've said either.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

I still don't understand what these horrible errors are

The horrible error is that you do not attribute salvation to the Christ.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

That's not true.