Religion and the death penalty.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty religious and also pretty liberal (in the American sense of the word) I became liberal (I used to be a Libertarian when I was younger) gradually as I've gotten older and generally been impressed with how well liberal institutions work. I regard politics as more practical than moral and don't think I have any right to have my own religious notions of morality enforced on others. Like many liberals, I object to the death penalty because if its long history of racist, classist and anti-male** application and its inherent imperfections (a single innocent being executed invalidates the whole institution.)

But, unlike other political positions I have, my disdain for the death penalty coincides with my religious beliefs on the matter. Mainly, that God's justice is perfect, God will send the sinners to hell and the righteous to heaven and it's not really possible for us, as mere mortals, to tell which is which. As such, justice as in retribution is a matter for God. We would do best to respect life and ensure our safety by locking up people who hurt others.

Yet I find that many people who are religious have no problem with the death penalty-- since religion tends to intersect of conservative politics more often. Or is there a religious connection there as well?

• Roman Catholic Church says that the death penalty is "lawful slaying" and basis this on it being a necessary deterrent and prevention method, but not as a means of vengeance. So, if it is ineffective as a deterrent (there is some evidence that this is true) --would they reject it? Recently they have though not very vocally.
• Anglican and Episcopalian bishops condemned the death penalty.
• Southern Baptist Convention updated Baptist Faith and Message. In it the convention officially sanctioned the use of capital punishment by the State. It said that it is the duty of the state to execute those guilty of murder and that God established capital punishment in the Noahic Covenant. This is different from the Roman Catholic take on it-- no mention of it excluding vengeance.
• Other Baptists reject the death penalty, my church does!
• Like Christians, Islam and Buddhists and Jews do not have a united stance on the matter.
• Atheists also have many views on the matter.

So, based on all of that, do we find no guidance in religion? I wonder how I would feel about the matter if the religious teachings I have encountered didn't match with my philosophical notions-- Is it always the case that one must shape the other? Is there anyone who thinks the death penalty should be allowed, though they suppose it is sinful or against their religion? Is there anyone who wants to stop the death penalty though they think it might not be a sin?


**We could talk about how believing it is wrong to kill a woman still further dehumanizes her-- the global effect of this furthesr sexism against women, the local effect is unfair to poor, mostly minority, men.

Comments

**

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

More whites are executed than blacks. As much as 4 points more whites than blacks.
http://www.naacpldf.org/content.aspx?article=297


Men murder on average 8 times for every murder perpetrated by a woman. The homicide rate "gender gap" hasn't closed over the years. In fact it has increased, and this despite a decline in number of homicides. In 1976 the ratio of male murderers to female was 5 to 1. By 1999 it was 9 to1 and at its peak, in 1995, it reached a surprisingly high 11 to 1 ratio.

http://social.jrank.org/pages/1253/Violent-Crime-Gender-Differences-in-Violent-Crime-Offenders.html

So to say that the death penalty is anti-male is statistically inaccurate. Women commit far fewer violent crimes that warrant the death penalty.

Re: **

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

The anti-male thing I was talking about relates to the objects some have to women getting the death penalty.

women account for about 1 in 10 (10%) murder arrests;
women account for only 1 in 50 (2%) death sentences imposed at the trial level;
women account for only 1 in 67 (1.5%) persons presently on death row; and
women account for only 1 in 100 (1%) persons actually executed in the modern era.

A lot of this has to do with the sexist ideas I mention in the OP.

As for black people and the death penalty-- black people are more likely to be sentenced to the death penalty after being arrested.

Re: **

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

The link I provided shows that white men are more often convicted than black men. Considerign that black men commit more violent crimes than white men, I think it's interesting that more white men are executed. I suspect that is because there are serial killers and grevious violence criminals who are white. 90 African American and 323 white American serial murderers, all men operating between 1945 and 2004
http://www.mwilliams.info/archive/2007/05/criminality-race-and-why-most-serial-killers-are-white-males.php

Summer 2009
White 1,457 (44.43%)
Black 1,364 (41.60%)

Spring 2009
White1,469 (44.73%)
Black1,365 (41.57%)

Every quarter I checked there were more whites on Death Row than blacks.
http://www.naacpldf.org/content.aspx?article=297

Women more likely murder those they know than strangers. This tends to make them less likely a canidate for death row and even more less likely to be actually executed.

You have to take into account the crime as well as the gender when you look at death row.


http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/dpusa.htm
Deawth Penalty in the USA from 1976-2008

CURRENT DEATH ROW BY RACE
White 630 (57%)
Black 377 (34%)
Hispanic 076 (07%)
Native Am 014 (01%)
Asian 008 (01%)

Re: **

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Before I run around and get you statics do you think it is likely that race plays a role in the way the sentencing occurs in the US?

Do you think it it likely that race might have an impact on arrest rates or how investigations proceeded? Do you think the race of the victim could have influence as well.

I don't want to waste my time talking to someone who is convinced that racism in the criminal justice system doesn't exist. It always devolves into pathetic and often racist assumptions about black cultural or intrinsic inferiority or criminality.

Re: **

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Your qualification questions are a bit insulting. Of course I believe there is racism in the justice system. There is clear evidence of that and I, a man of color, have experienced it. I do not believe however that there is racism in the death penalty. I believe the numbers I have found show otherwise.

I believe, because the numbers support it, that a white man is far more likely to be executed than a black man. That more black men are arrested for violent crime but more white men killed.

Now if you want to argue that when a black man kills a white person (especially a woman) he's going to be killed, I am pretty confident (without seeing the numbers) that you're right.

I think that to make a blanket statement that black men are more affected by the death penalty than whites is wrong.

Re: **

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

OK. But what I said was that black people are more likely to be sentenced to the death penalty. The stats black this up.

http://66.39.33.150/death-penalty-black-and-white-who-lives-who-dies-who-decides#Study%201

Re: **

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

There is a lot about that link that doesn't makes sense.

For example:
1)Two of the country's foremost researchers on race and capital punishment, law professor David Baldus and statistician George Woodworth, along with colleagues in Philadelphia, have conducted a careful analysis of race and the death penalty in Philadelphia which reveals that the odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times (3.9) higher if the defendant is black.

Okay, from what time period? I can't verify this at all. I checked the sources but they do not state which source provided this data.

What I can say, based on the numbers, is that there are currently 1517 whites and 1397 blacks on Death Row in 2008

I can also say that 5,334 murders where committed by white offenders, 5,943 were committed by black or black and Hispanic offenders in 2008.



Based on the execution data I have provided, and the violent crime data. It appears that the odds are more likely that if you are white you will be a) convicted of murder b) Executed. In fact 45% more whites have been exected than blacks.

Now, this may not be the case in philly. However, there are a lot of factors that the report you provided ignores. Blacks are the majority in Philly. Majority of violent crimes commited in Philly are done so by blacks.

The numbers don't confirm with the link you provided.

Re: **

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

5,943 were committed by black or black and Hispanic offenders in 2008.

...since your numbers for death row are black vs. white and your numbers for murders include Hispanic people with blacks could this be the problem?

Re: **

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

How so? It only proves further that more white people are involved in violent crimes that involve murder than blacks.

Re: **

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

hmmm... this seems more up to date:

http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/01/obstinately-support-racist-death.html

Re: **

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

My numbers come from the NAACP and your's comes from a blog spot? I trust the NAACP more.

Plus the blog spot site uses a lot of clever double speak.

From 1976 to Dec 2009, in terms of interracial murders, only 15 executions involved a white murderer and a black victim. [8] Yet there were 245 executions for black murderers with white victims.

Okay, so that proves that black people kill more whites than white people kill more blacks.

If 245 black murders with white vicitims and there have only ever been 377 black murders executetd that would mean that 65% of all black murders involve a white person, that were hanous enough to go for the death penalty.

Re: **

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

From the same link.

"A second study by Professor Jeffrey Pokorak and researchers at St. Mary's University Law School in Texas provides part of the explanation for why the application of the death penalty remains racially skewed. Their study found that the key decision makers in death cases around the country are almost exclusively white men. Of the chief District Attorneys in counties using the death penalty in the United States, nearly 98% are white and only 1% are African-American."

Why does the race of the DA matter? That is implying that all white people are naturally racially biased.

If the reports findings were true and white DAs are racially bias why do these same white DAs convict so many white violent criminals versus their black counterparts? As recent of data as I can collect shows that there are almost 100 more whites than blacks on Death Row.

Re: **

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Why does the race of the DA matter? That is implying that all white people are naturally racially biased.

No it isn't implying that. Rather it is significant since the people who are biased against black people are most often white. It would only take a few such people to start causing a problem even if most are probably not racist.

Re: **

[prader.livejournal.com]

I believe, because the numbers support it, that a white man is far more likely to be executed than a black man. That more black men are arrested for violent crime but more white men killed.


In an odd, twisted sort of way, that's almost an insult to Black people. Sort of like saying the life of a Black person killed by another Black person doesn't have as much value as that of a white person killed by another white person.

I'm probably just overthinking it.

Re: **

[prader.livejournal.com]

Apologies for the double/prev post. Meant to paste what is in the current version but pasted something from a response in a completely different conversation. Operator error.

But probably a really funny 'WTF!?' moment.

Re: **

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

I think it has more to do with the nature of the crime. For example most women aren't executed because they killed their husband or someone they knew personally adn had a 'reason' to kill.

A lot of black on black crime is gang related or a smaller crime gone wrong (like lasy year a black pawn shop employee killed a black kid in my city cause the kid was trying to rob him. He got off completely).

A white man who commits murder and is given the death sentence often it appears to be because they are crazy violent sickos.

This is why it is easier for the State to kill a white man than a black man. Again, according to the numbers from the NAACP website.

Re: **

[prader.livejournal.com]

Is it possible that the reason more whites than blacks are on death row at any given time is because the sentence for black people is carried out with more haste/not subject to as many appeals?