You're a Mean One, Grinch Alert

[paft.livejournal.com]

Robert Jeffress:

Well, you know every year people bemoan the War on Christmas and I thought, “Let’s do something positive about it,” so we created this website, Grinchalert.com, it allows people to go on our website and, uh, if they’ve encountered a business that shuns Christmas they can talk about it and put that business on the naughty list but if they find a business that celebrates Christmas, they can put that business on the nice list. It’s just a fun way to say to businesses and organizations, “You don’t have to bow to political correctness. It’s okay to say, “Merry Christmas…”

John Roberts: What if businesses who are on the naughty list lose customers?... Would it be a good idea to affect people’s business at this season, which can be make or break for some people, and in this economic climate?

Jeffress: John, let me make it clear, we have never even hinted at a boycott…

"Never even hinted at a boycott?" Really? Here’s what Jeffress said on Fox:

Jeffress: One great example in the Dallas area, there was a bank that took down a Christmas tree because they said it would offend customers. Well, there was another bank that got put on our nice list, the Providence Bank, because they put up a nativity scene. The CEO told me yesterday that there were customers changing from the bank that removed the Christmas tree, and they’re flocking to his bank.

Gretchen Carlson: You are not calling for a boycott of any of these businesses….

Jeffress: Oh, not at all, not in any way! You know, there’s a Mexican restaurant you mentioned that was saying Happy Holidays, but our family still goes there every week…

Watch the latest video at video.foxnews.com

So it’s all about reassuring businesses. Honest! It’s all about making them feel nice and safe. He’s not advocating a boycott.

But he’s delighted to share as an example that little story of a bank losing customers because they took down a Christmas tree.

See, here's what mystifies me about this... Jeffress likes the idea of forcing other people and businesses to utter "Merry Christmas" and post signs saying "Merry Christmas" who are uncomfortable doing it. Do the people at "Grinch Alert" really imagine that businesses and retailers intimidated into towing Grinch Alert's line are acting in the spirit of the season?

And here's one more video, especially for the Reverend Mr. Jeffress:

Thanx to Juliebogen

Crossposted at Thoughtcrimes

Comments

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Then use words like, "could you clairify your point".

From where I sit it looks like you are trying to ignore her point about it being a boycott, but they wont admit to it - and replace it with a strawman "people get abused for saying merry xmas".

yes, there are people who have been yelled at for saying 'Merry Christmas'

Irrelevant strawman is irrelevant.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Irrelevant strawman is irrelevant.

Maybe to you. Not to me. Thanks!

[paft.livejournal.com]

Strawmen are always irrelevant. Not to mention dishonest.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

The OP is about denying something is a boycott when it clearly is a boycott.

If you want to discuss how you got scolded for saying Merry Xmas, I suggest making your own post about it rather than attempting to derail the post.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

The OP is about denying something is a boycott when it clearly is a boycott.

And I'll tell you the same thing I told paft - post specifically on the website where it says that businesses with 'naughty' entries should be subject to a boycott.

I'll wait...

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Its not being explicitly stated, that's the issue.

Name one use for the list other than voting with your dollar?


I am completely 100% behind anyone's right to make such a list, but I think its a coy lie to suggest its not for a "boycott". Own up to it.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Where do you get this 'voting with your dollar' garbage? I choose where I spend my money. Don't you?

I am completely 100% behind anyone's right to make such a list, but I think its a coy lie to suggest its not for a "boycott". Own up to it.

Nothing to own up to. It's a board for complaints/compliments about the businesses and holiday themed issues in general.

Did you read any of the complaints? Not all of them were focused on whether or not people were saying 'Merry Christmas'.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Where do you get this 'voting with your dollar' garbage?

Garbage? The phrase 'voting with your dollar' is a common euphemism for boycotting. Its a bit broader in concept in that encompasses spending on things you do agree with and not spending on things you dont. Anyway, its certainly not garbage.

It's a board for complaints/compliments about the businesses and holiday themed issues in general.

Agreed. Now, as a consumer, I can take that information and choose to spend my money with people who are saying "Merry Xmas" and avoid businesses that are not doing so, ie boycotting them.

So, can you suggest any other use for the list? Why is admitting they are attempting to get people to patronize businesses that do say "Merry Xmas", and to avoid ones that don't, such an offensive admission?

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Now, as a consumer, I can take that information and choose to spend my money with people who are saying "Merry Xmas" and avoid businesses that are not doing so, ie boycotting them.

That's your choice. By posting a complaint, no one on that board is telling anyone they can't purchase anything from that company. Honestly, why is that so hard for you to understand.

Why is admitting they are attempting to get people to patronize businesses that do say "Merry Xmas", and to avoid ones that don't, such an offensive admission?

Cause that's specifically not what they're doing, and you even admitted that.

you are trolling again I see....

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

no one on that board is telling anyone they can't purchase anything from that company


You are trying hard to move the goalposts. Sorry, I am not going to allow it.

You cannot force a boycott on anyone, everyone knows that.

Again: the OP is about them denying the list is being used to punish businesses during Christmas (a boycott). It clearly is doing just that per the comments on the site, "I'm not shopping there again".


Cause that's specifically not what they're doing, and you even admitted that.

They are listing businesses that they perceive to be naughty, without ANY verification, and letting the consumer decide if they want to boycott them.

you even admitted that

Pardon?

Re: you are trolling again I see....

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

And you're being obtuse.

Yes, everyone knows that you can't force a boycott on someone. But again, NO ONE IS SPECIFICALLY CALLING FOR A BOYCOTT. If someone chooses not to take their money to one of the businesses mentioned, they're not required to. So why are you and paft treating this issue as if it's some horrible crime?

They are listing businesses that they perceive to be naughty, without ANY verification, and letting the consumer decide if they want to boycott them.

You just proved my point. THEY are letting the consumer decide. The OP was an attack on the website and the leader of the group who said it up. It's plain to see that.

Pardon?

Oh, you need to be reminded of your own words? Here ya go! (http://community.livejournal.com/talk_politics/815027.html?thread=61114291#t61114291)

Its not being explicitly stated, that's the issue.

Re: you are trolling again I see....

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

NO ONE IS SPECIFICALLY CALLING FOR A BOYCOTT

I know, they are denying it, but then they make a tool that is designed to use for boycotting. Making a BOYCOTT (naughty) vs. PATRONIZE (nice) list and paying to host it on a public site is encouraging a boycott.

The issue we have is they wont own up to it.


If someone chooses not to take their money to one of the businesses mentioned, they're not required to. So why are you and paft treating this issue as if it's some horrible crime?


No one has suggested its a horrible crime, those are your words.
For the fourth time, the issue is that they deny its a boycott, but then are offering tools to boycott. Its a coy lie.


THEY are letting the consumer decide

This is true of every boycott in the history of the free market. No one has EVER been forced to boycott - by definition.

They are enabling and encouraging the consumer to boycott the naughty and patronizing the nice by creating such a list in the first place.

Its not being explicitly stated, that's the issue.

Right. They produced a tool used to boycott naughty biz, and then deny its a boycott cause that would make them look mean.

Re: you are trolling again I see....

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

The issue we have is they wont own up to it.

They have. They've specifically said they're not telling people to boycott the businesses mentioned.

Even if that were the case, why is that such a problem for you? Do you think that people don't have free will and wouldn't be able to listen to something a website tells them? Really?

You're being completely fanatical about the whole issue to the point of just being ridiculous.

Re: you are trolling again I see....

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

A boycott has power specifically because it is a group of people agreeing publicly that they will not shop at X stores. A place to get information about other people's opinions on X stores is a review site, no different than Yelp. Surely you can grasp the difference in concept here? Or is the term "Christmas" blocking your thinking?

Re: you are trolling again I see....

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

THIS. Fucking THIS. Thank you!

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

I choose where I spend my money. Don't you?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I may even use such a list to choose, but I'll admit that is what I am doing. The ones making the list should just admit it, but they don't want the bad press of boycotting stuff at XMAS.

Did you read any of the complaints

No. It doesn't matter, its still a list to use to steer consumers towards or away certain businesses.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I may even use such a list to choose, but I'll admit that is what I am doing.

You're a hypocrite. You clearly stated there's nothing on the website from the group who created it telling people to boycott the businesses mentioned. So why would you expect them to admit it when they've already stated verbally several times that's not their intention?

No. It doesn't matter...

Then clearly, you have no place discussing this issue when you admit you have no knowledge of reading the complaints on the website. Nice try!

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

You clearly stated there's nothing on the website from the group who created it telling people to boycott the businesses mentioned

Actually you stated that, I didn't. I did read some of the comments stating people were going to "never do business", etc.


So why would you expect them to admit it when they've already stated verbally several times that's not their intention?

The only possible use for the list is to steer people towards the nice and away from the naughty. From the comments, that is clearly what people are doing with the information.

Then clearly, you have no place discussing this issue when you admit you have no knowledge of reading the complaints on the website. Nice try!

The comment content has no bearing on my point That said, I have now read much of the cover page. It doesn't change my argument on iota, however it did provide evidence the list is being used by people to boycott businesses and publicly spread the word about which ones are bad and which are good.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

The only possible use for the list is to steer people towards the nice and away from the naughty. From the comments, that is clearly what people are doing with the information.

Oh no! You mean it gives people a CHOICE as to where they can spend their money?!? Oh horrors! People might start thinking for themselves!!! This is TERRIBLE!

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

I mean the information is being used to boycott certain businesses, just as it is intended and organized to be.

The choice issue is your strawman again. Of course no one can force a boycott, but you can make a good/bad list and encourage people to choose from it.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Just read it. After reading the comments, I am more clear that its a boycott list.

Consider this comment:

"Employees will not say "Merry Christmas" because they have been instructed to say, "happy holidays". This has been going on for years and I quit buying from them"

Gee. They quit buying from them. That's a boycott. Plain as day.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's someone personally choosing not to buy from a company. Notice it doesn't say "...and I don't think anyone else should buy anything from them, either."

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Why is the list is only sortable by naughty or nice?

Its not sortable by business, by votes, by reviewer. No. Just sortable by NAUGHTY (boycott) or NICE (patronize). Its also not vetted in any way.

If it were a balanced list of businesses, you'd be able to sort on who votes for and against a specific business. You'd be able to see some other data.

Nope. The data is being presented as a BAD list and Good list.

Standard Boycott/Patronize list, by definition.

They can deny it all they want, but its obviously a coy lie for the reasons stated above.

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Planet Feedback does the same thing. They sort their letters by complaint, compliment, suggestion, or question. However, the website says nothing about boycotts, just as Grinch Alert doesn't.

Really, I think you and paft are trying to make an issue out of something that isn't an issue. If you have a problem with the website, neither one of you has to even look at it.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Planet Feedback is not organized into a "Naughty" (boycott) and "Nice" (patronize) list. You can search on a company and see plus and minus votes.

Grinch Alert is binary, good/bad and there doesn't seem to be any way to disagree with a bad review. Total boycott list.

Again, its all legal and good, but don't pretend its not a boycott list.

If you have a problem with the website, neither one of you has to even look at it.

Same goes for you and this OP.

We are allowed to make a post illustrating the coy lie of suggesting its not a boycott list and you can either comment on this or ignore it yourself.