(no subject)

[thies.livejournal.com]

Using the constitution as toilet paper - again. The Obama administration authorized the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki who holds US citizenship. There is some nefarious precedent being created by allowing the President to order the killing of American citizens, regardless of their alleged crimes, without granting them their 5th Amendment rights. Bush with his renditions, and the implications of the Patriot Act was bad enough, but ordering a US citizen to be assassinated as Obama now did takes it to a whole new level. I bet Stalin would be proud of Barry Soetoro. Anyone want to wager which other parts of the constitution will be considered void by Obama until he gets kicked out of the white house?

(source)

Comments

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

You know, they told me if I voted for John McCain the president would do these kind of things.

And they were right.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

You know, they told me if I voted for John McCain.....

Hey, when I was at school they told me I lived in the free world, we were the first world, we had freedom of speech etc etc etc, oh and apparently we were not to believe those who cried wolf (though I'm now of the opinion the village elders had a remote control wolf and shares in a lunatic assylum) hell apparently we were not to believe that the sky was falling either.

By the same "token" we were also told that by the year 2010 we'd all be wearing bacofoil suits, flying to work in skycars for our 3-day week (Cos robots would be doing the labour), only eating vitamin pills, Phone calls would be Free because of the abudance of free energy, and hell we'll only ever need 5 computers, for the whole world.

yeah, I'm prone to believing what I'm told these days too, now where's my bacofoil suit?

[dv8nation.livejournal.com]

I don't think a guy like that should be able to hide behind his passport. And hell, if it's okay to assassinate foreigners is there any real moral high ground in saying "Well, we won't assassinate any fellow Americans,"?

[ex-restless.livejournal.com]

I don't know the specifics of the story, but I don't know that it's as much an issue of moral high ground as it is an issue of integrity in application of Constitutional rights.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

I think Obama should use the unrestrained powers given to the last president in the most obnoxious way possible. How else are the wingnuts going to understand that powers given to a president they like will carry over to a president they don't like.

I think the president should declare every Republican in the Senate a threat to national security and waterboard them at Gitmo. (not really)

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Dick Cheney too!

j/k

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

There is some nefarious precedent being created by allowing the President to order the killing of American citizens, regardless of their alleged crimes, without granting them their 5th Amendment rights

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36208306/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

As a general principle, international law permits the use of lethal force against individuals and groups that pose an imminent threat to a country, and officials said that was the standard used in adding names to the list of targets.

In addition, Congress approved the use of military force against Al Qaeda after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. People on the target list are considered to be military enemies of the United States and therefore not subject to the ban on political assassination first approved by President Gerald R. Ford.


This is not a Constitutional matter since the powers to do this have already been granted to the previous Administration.

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

This is not a Constitutional matter since the powers to do this have already been granted to the previous Administration.

But, but, but......(cont. page 94)

It's great when you don't even need the punchlines.

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is just like Stalin. I call top bunk in the FEMA camp!

[thies.livejournal.com]

ITT: we belittle the severity of the Savior ordering the assassination of an american citizen.

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

You had me until "Barry Soetoro". {*rolls eyes*}

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

I thought Spotlight Week was over.

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

Hi! I'm an anarchist! Any other anarchists here?

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

He has been linked to Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the army psychiatrist accused of killing 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas, in November, and to Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the Nigerian charged with trying to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner on Christmas Day

His sermons and recordings have been found on the computers of at least a dozen terror suspects in the United States and Britain. In addition, al-Awlaki admits to having communication with U.S. Army Maj. Nidal Hassan, who has been charged in the shooting deaths of 13 people at Ford Hood, Texas, in November.

I feel really bad for the guy.

[thies.livejournal.com]

sadly the administration seems to share your views that fair trials are overrated these days

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Gee, "Stalin", "Barry Soetoro", and "Savior" - BINGO!

[thies.livejournal.com]

Do you get to execute a random american for a bingo?

The real gotcha

[tridus.livejournal.com]

"In February, the director of national intelligence, Dennis Blairan, alarmed civil liberties groups when he told Congress that the US may, with executive approval, deliberately target and kill US citizens suspected of being involved in terrorism."


Well, I'm glad to see you've done away with all that pesky due process and rule of law stuff. Now you assassinate suspicious people.

The US has become a very scary place.

Re: The real gotcha

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

He's not 'suspicious people', he's behind two major American terrorism plots and directly linked to many more terrorists.

This isn't 'we are going to kill this guy because we think he said some mean stuff'.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Gee, I wonder how Fox News will spin *this* one.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

It's all part of Barry Hussein Obamanation's evul plot. Maybe the GOP will start a defense fund for al-Awlaki.

[x-eleven.livejournal.com]

Won't Get Fooled Again

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again

Change it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fall that's all
But the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
For I know that the hypnotized never lie

Do ya?


There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

Emphasis mine

This could be the anthem of this administration.

It's like I've been saying all along: George W. Bush's "third term" began on 20 January, 2009.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

Questions

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

The policy of targeted killings is controversial. President Gerald Ford issued an executive order banning political assassinations in 1976.

How much power does an Executive Order have?

However, Congress approved the use of military force against al-Qaida after the 9/11 terrorist attacks. People on the target list are considered to be military enemies of the US and therefore not subject to the ban on political assassination.

Can Congress trump an Executive Order?

If thi man were to surrender would he still be shot on sight?

Is it okay, in your opinion, to assassinate non-American citizens?

Re: Questions

[thies.livejournal.com]

In a perfect world there would be no war and crime. I dislike the notion of any kind of assassination, but with enough probable cause I agree that killing a civilian who has engaged in hostile acts and is in a territory which makes apprehending and bringing him to justice nigh impossible it can be legitimate.

For me the problem is that this guy is a citizen and constituent of the government who seeks to kill him while that government is supposed to operate under rules granting him protection from exactly that and guarantee a fair trial.

[anyusa0030.livejournal.com]

in my opinion a terrorist is a terrorist reqardless of the color of they skin or nationality and should be treated the same,if ordering the killing of terrorist from the other country is okey then those of america nationality should be okey too.this should not be a case in which some animal are more equal than others.because those who were killed by macbane are just as dead as those who were killed on 911 .

[thies.livejournal.com]

and down the slippery slope to a fascist police state we go!

He is a US citizen. Justice is blind and he has the same rights under the constitution as any other citizen. If he is a terrorist, it can and should be proven in court.

[penguin42.livejournal.com]

I'd like to point out that the 5th amendment makes no mention of "citizen" -- it refers to "person." So technically, whether someone is a citizen or not has no bearing on whether the 5th amendment applies or not.

I'm not sure if there have been court cases that contradict this interpretation though.

[thies.livejournal.com]

neither am I, but from what I read on the matter it has been applied to citizens, not mankind at large.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

You do not get to decide what is constitutional or not. Take it up with the supreme court.

[thies.livejournal.com]

I bet I can use a variation of that on any argument you'll make

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

He has to be proven guilty of treason in court first.

No surprise here

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

After Obama knuclked under on the torture photos, I knew we were in for some spinelessness. I seriously doubt that an opposition candidate would have the courage to buck the tide of facism.

Re: No surprise here

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

Oops! That's fascism, not facism. (freudian slip)

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

Rule of Law > Rule By Whim

Or at least it should be. :\

Excellent train of logic

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Consistent with the position you have assumed regarding the constitutionality of attacked hostile military forces who happen to be U.S. citizens, my private army, which I will be using to attack the United States and/or it's allies with will be composed entirely of disgruntled U.S. citizens.

That way, I know that they cannot be constitutionally attacked and kiled in the field by U.S. forces without first being arrested and tried. Unless there is a republican president in office, in which case I expect it would be perfectly ok.

Re: Excellent train of logic

[thies.livejournal.com]

civil war / hutaree scenario, been gone over at length in one of the threads here.

Awlaki is potentially a terrorist, to date he has not engaged himself into direct armed conflict as far as public knowledge goes and is thus not part of any military or even an enemy combatant.

Due process as called for by the constitution calls for attempting to arrest him and if successful try him in court.

But do keep trying to justify how the government assassinating a fellow citizen who was found guilty of nothing is legally correct, it's most amusing.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

In actual fact unlike Bush, who did it all arse-backwards, Obama's administration has gone about this the correct way.

If someone is part of a hostile enemy armed forces and you are fighting them, regardless of their affiliation, you treat them as as exactly that.

On the other hand, if you capture them, you continue obeyings the laws of war, by treating them as a prisoner of war, refrain from torturing or mistreating them and if they are guilty of a crime (which doesn't include simply being part of an enemy armed force) you try them according to applicable laws, including domestic laws that concern U.S. citizens engaging in hostilities against the United States, where relevant.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

I think it would have been more in keeping with U.S. law to send a duly constituted officer to arrest al-Awlaki. Since that is not feasible, I have no problem with sending him an order to appear in court. Once we determine his exact location, it could be delivered remotely by some sort of flying device.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

As usual you said that so much better than I did :D

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I've been trying honestly to wrap my brain around this as it definitely is at least 6 different kinds of uncomfortable.

Ideally, he could be apprehended, charged and tried.

But there are a number of issues at hand. First, he isn't a run of the mill criminal. There's information that he isn't merely a terrorist sympathizer either. He's believed to be an active member of Al Qaeda, the terrorist network with whom we've been fighting, and is recruiting for them. Further, he's in a country we cannot legally extradite from.

There's a point where someone ceases to be a criminal and becomes an enemy in a war. The order that was given is presumaby because we cannot legally apprehend him, so the military has been told that if they are given a shot, to take it. We did that to Admiral Yamamoto in WWII. And I have to believe that if in that war, an American citizen not only joined the German Nazi Party, but also went overseas to actively work for them, recruiting people for the SS, that there would be little question that he could be killed.

[ironhawke.livejournal.com]

This. Especially on the last paragraph. The sorts of distortions that the OP originally started with (wiping his ass, etc) lead me to believe that this isn't so much an issue with the actual facts of the situation, but more of an opportunity to bash the Prez. Unfortunately I've been seeing a lot of this lately and it smacks of the desperation of the left during the middle years of the Bush administration. (After he pissed a lot of people off, but before the facts started emerging that he was as much of a douchebag as they thought.)

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

I blame Bush.

"I bet Stalin would be proud of Barry Soetoro."

[papasha-mueller.livejournal.com]

Wrong, dude.
If he'd give a toss that'd be Sarah or Condy.