[identity profile] blue-mangos.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Let's try this again, as I feel it is an important matter to discuss.

America stands almost alone without legislation for paid maternity leave. American mothers, under the Family and Medical Leave Act are allowed only 12 weeks of unpaid leave before returning to work. To make it worse, those who work for companies with fewer than 50 employees or have worked less than 1,250 hours in the past year are not covered under the Act and are entitled to no time off. While some companies have provided their own paid maternity leave policies these jobs are scarce. A 2008 report found that only 16% of companies with more than 100 workers provide 100% paid maternity leave for the legislated period. Women can not rely on the goodwill of their employers, legislation is sorely needed to ensure the rights of working mothers.

Almost every other country in the world, including Afghanistan, Somalia, Cuba and Iraq have paid maternity leave legislation of some sort. Most nations have laws providing for time off ranging from 14 to 96 weeks in a mixture of paid and unpaid time and varying levels of pay. In the Czech Republic mothers can take up to 4 years off, paid for by the state. Sweden provides 16 months, with the cost shared between the government and the employer at 80% of the the mothers salary. The UK laws provide for 39 weeks paid, by the employer with an additional 13 weeks unpaid. Canada provides 52 weeks, paid for by the government at 55% of your salary with an additional 35 weeks of parental leave to be shared with your partner, covered under our Employment Insurance program.

The benefits of maternity leave are vast for both the mother and child. Mothers without maternity leave or shorter periods are, not surprisingly, more likely to become depressed. Returning to work after childbirth makes breastfeeding, with all it's health benefits, all but impossible. Studies have shown that fewer than 12 weeks maternity leave have behavioral effects on the child in the long term. They have lower cognitive test scores, reach milestones later and exhibit behavioral problems as they age. As they reach school age lower tests scores are noted. There are even results being shown in new studies in the field of epigenetics that may prove that early social interaction influences the marks that effect serotonin levels which may lead to adult depression. Longer maternity leaves have been shown to decrease early childhood mortality rates due to better monitoring of the child's health or accident prevention. These benefits clearly demonstrate the the short and long term beneficial effects of longer maternity leaves for the betterment of society.

Many of you probably believe the government should not be forced to pay maternity leave salaries. However if you look at the programs in place all around the world you can see that this is not mandatory. There are programs ranging from full state paid, payment divided between the state and the employer or full employer paid. Any of these are acceptable. What is not acceptable is to continue to force American mothers to choose between bonding with their child and making money to cover the needs of their families.

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Date: 25/6/11 14:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
Early childhood development is not a huge social concern. I mean, why do you think we have prisons?

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Date: 25/6/11 14:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chessdev.livejournal.com
It's not that it's not a concern -- it's that it hasnt been quantified in a way that people can understand would justify the costs.

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Date: 25/6/11 14:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
I don't see it as a zero sum game with a binary dichotomy.

Because childhood development with the parents is important, it doesn't mean that businesses or taxpayers ought to be paying the bill for it.

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Date: 26/6/11 05:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dv8nation.livejournal.com
To make it possible for Paul Newman to make "Cool Hand Luke"?

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Date: 25/6/11 14:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chessdev.livejournal.com
To a point, I agree with you -- we should have some type of safety net in place if we can.

HOWEVER, you are also suggesting that someone who has worked for less than a year at a company be able to be gone for more than 3 months while being paid to do.

You are also comparing different systems where health care costs are handled by the government in varying levels -- which allow the employers "obligation" in your scenario to be somewhat less without leaving people financially devastated.


So again, I agree with you to a point - but not sure I agree with the examples used, nor that the economic benefit of doing this has been fully articulated.

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From: [identity profile] chessdev.livejournal.com - Date: 25/6/11 15:02 (UTC) - Expand
From: [identity profile] squidb0i.livejournal.com
The employer should just grant a leave of absence and the rest should be handled by a very big risk spreading pool administered as part of universal healthcare.. but good luck getting that in place.

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Date: 25/6/11 14:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ex-swaggerd.livejournal.com
We just need an entire system reform for healthcare. It sucks ass here.

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Date: 25/6/11 14:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aelf.livejournal.com
"Returning to work after childbirth makes breastfeeding, with all it's health benefits, all but impossible."

I hate to see that ignorance propagated. Returning to work after childbirth does not make breastfeeding "all but impossible." There are a number of things one can do to continue the nursing relationship & while in some jobs it is exceedingly difficult or even impossible, that is not true across the board. Improvements can be made in supporting nursing mothers independent of increasing maternity leave; I personally don't want them inextricably linked because it's too easy to think the only support necessary for a nursing mother is for her to stay home. Some of us want to return to work.

I also get frustrated by the "bonding" comments. Mothers can't bond with their babies if they aren't caring for them 24/7? Really, truly? What about fathers? Fathers need to bond with their children, right? So shouldn't you also be arguing for them to stay home for N time period after their children are born?

While I think you have some good thoughts, so much of what you said feeds into the "mothers are fully responsible for everything about their children. If they don't stay with them constantly, they won't bond. If they don't nurse them exclusively, they'll be sickly and stupid and mentally ill." We don't need more of that.

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Date: 25/6/11 14:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
I don't see why the original post was deleted.

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Date: 25/6/11 15:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
I presume this is because a large segment of the government simply wants those women to remain at home permanently. You don't need a job, you have a child!

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Date: 25/6/11 15:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] korean-guy-01.livejournal.com
I haven't received sufficient proof why I should bear any cost (whether that be taxation, less benefits from a determined pool of employee compensation from my employer, and/or increased cost of goods) to support other people's decision to have children.

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u 1st

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Re: u 1st

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Date: 25/6/11 15:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peamasii.livejournal.com
Why should it be so difficult to estimate the benefits to society in the US? Here in the Netherlands maternity, breastfeeding and childcare are promoted as serious business. Maternity leave is minimum 16 weeks full paid from social security funds (some companies will offer extra time), and breastfeeding is necessarily facilitated in all employment. Child allowance is also given to each family, regardless of income, about 1000 EUR/ year for each child until they reach the age of 18. Childcare is private, expensive and usually subsidized by 50% or more in working families. Mothers with young children have the legal right to limit working hours to part-time status without getting fired or layed off. I think if it was so unfeasibly difficult it wouldn't be the norm in European countries, but in fact many have even more favorable benefits compared to the NL.

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Date: 25/6/11 15:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
Like America needs to take advice from a bunch of people running around in wooden shoes!

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Why stop there?

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Re: Why stop there?

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Re: Why stop there?

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Re: Why stop there?

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Re: Why stop there?

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Re: Why stop there?

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Re: reductio ad absurdum

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Re: reductio ad absurdum

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The third way

Date: 25/6/11 15:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] harry-beast.livejournal.com
Money for mothers can certainly be taken from the government or from employers. Another option is for the family to play a role. Reversing punitive tax treatment for single income families, for example, would soften the blow for mothers who choose to take time off when children are very young.

Re: The third way

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Date: 25/6/11 16:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kinvore.livejournal.com
This is one of those areas where I don't always agree with my fellow liberals, government-enforced paid maternity leave. I think a mother shouldn't lose her job for having a baby (as they say in my favorite show, "Duh and/or hell-o") and I think they should be able to take those first few months off if they'd like, but not sure why her employer and/or the taxpayers should have to foot the bill.

People shouldn't have children if they can't afford them. Yes I know the way it works now is it puts more of a burden on women and that's unfortunate but I don't know if this is a good solution. Then again I have no alternative solution, not afraid to admit it.

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Date: 25/6/11 18:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] soliloquy76.livejournal.com
100% agree.

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Date: 25/6/11 16:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
This is a good way to keep women out of the workforce. I know I'd think twice about hiring a chef if I knew I was compelled to give her as much time off as you seem to be suggesting. Quit apart from the financial burden, it would play havoc with production, menu planning, quality control, etc.

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Date: 25/6/11 17:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
It would certainly fuck over women between the ages of 16 and 30 in the workforce. If they hire on and then a few months or a year later I have to pay them a years salary for having a kid... well fuck hiring them. Especially when they can very well quit after the maternity is up and I'm out a years pay and a slightly experienced staffer.

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Date: 25/6/11 20:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
And as I commented in the other thread, this will cost somewhere between $100 Billion and $200 Billion a year, where do you propose the money come from?

Look I am not opposed to doing this, if you are going to have a social safety net paid maternity leave is one of the more beneficial forms and does not lead to the moral hazard and unintended consequences of many other forms but still this money is going to come from somewhere and it is disingenuous to say "we need this" without at least mentioning a possibility for where the money can come from.

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Date: 25/6/11 20:51 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
Or we could work to fix the real problem(s) that lead to this being a problem. Not that I see that happening any time soon.

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Date: 25/6/11 21:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com
In the US it is considered a bad thing to pay someone for not being productive. You want to have kids, fine. Each employee is not a special little snowflake, anyone can be replaced and you don't have a right to be employed. As your employer my only problem is finding your replacement if you cannot work. The bottom line is balancing the cost of hiring and training a new employee vs keeping the existing one. The only benefit to the employer is reducing the churn rate.

Considering that your labor is largely a commodity that can be replaced, why would you expect special treatment to compensate for your choice to become less competitive?

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Date: 26/6/11 00:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
Why would it be considered a good thing to pay someone to not be productive?

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Date: 25/6/11 22:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] allhatnocattle.livejournal.com
I certainly won`t hire a pregnant girl. I wouldn`t hire anyone who couldn`t commit to coming to work on time, for the next bunch of years. I mean this is why a person is hired in the first place... to be at the job. Somebody who decides to get pregnant and then take extended period of mat leave has forfeited their loyalty to the employer, and thereby the employer owes them no loyalty back.

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Date: 25/6/11 22:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] curseangel.livejournal.com
lol, as if businesses in the US have any loyalty to their employees as is.

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From: [identity profile] allhatnocattle.livejournal.com - Date: 25/6/11 23:01 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 25/6/11 22:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] curseangel.livejournal.com
FTR, I agree with you. Women in the US need and deserve much better maternity leave than they're getting-- much longer and with pay.

Of course, it's unlikely to happen in America's completely selfish, capitalist society. Boo.

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Date: 26/6/11 04:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] my-wits-end.livejournal.com
I am appalled and disgusted by the ruthlessly self-centered, bottom-line focused attitude shared by so many people in America and expressed here in this forum, and after reading many of these responses, I am ready to move to Europe. Until people come to see taking care of people as an end in itself and not insisting that it be a means to some economic end, there is going to be fundamental disagreement when it comes to issues such as this. Quality of life is not measured in dollars and cents.

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Date: 26/6/11 04:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
'Quality of life is not measured in dollars and cents. '

Which is why food is free in America and laboring for anything is not necessary.

Things have cost. If you can't cope with that realism then I recommend you find an opium den and breath deep.

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Date: 26/6/11 07:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com
If you legislate for women , you will get employers not asking , but simply avoiding married women and single women who may get married and have a baby at some point.

People in business do not play nice, they play the system.

The way round this is to stop asking for 'maternity leave' and start talking ' parental leave'.
Yeah, make it law and make it open to male and female employees.

that way, there is no advantage to hiring a guy over a woman - they are both entitled to say " I want time out to be with my kid".

Of course, this means acknowledging the simple fact that some guys actually are decent people who want to be there for their offspring, but will making this statement bring howls of protest from the hardliners among the Feminist movement?

Will Germaine Greer get up onher soap box and say
" Damned right - a man *ought* to be involved in his child's upbringing and not just hand everything to the mother. Dammit, some men want to be involved, and just like equal pay for women actually benefitted men by letting the ir wives and mothers bring home bigger incomes, letting men have Parental leave will benefit women in the workplace by undermining the 'Mummy track' mentality of empoyers".

Well, is she? If any reasonable and forward thinking Feminist even ran it past her Fellow Feminists, will they turn on her and accuse her of ' pandering to men', or ' not being a ' real feminist' ?

It would be interesting to find out - but you need a lot of nerve to make suggestions like that if you wanna stay in with the in crowd in Feminism , it seems.

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Date: 26/6/11 14:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
"If you legislate for women , you will get employers not asking , but simply avoiding married women and single women who may get married and have a baby at some point."

This. so. hard.

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From: [identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com - Date: 27/6/11 10:19 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 26/6/11 14:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
I have such mixed feelings about this. On one hand, of course mothers should get maternity leave...on the other, is it really fair to ask for all that time to be paid for? I'm not sure where I stand tbh. And what if you have a stay-at-home dad? Should the mother still get time off? Should that time be paid?

I guess I'll stay on the "lurking" end of this discussion for right now since I'm not yet either a mother or pursuing a career.

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Date: 26/6/11 20:33 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
is it really fair

I don't get the logic that claims someone elses abortion a crime and its also a crime for society to help raise our own offspring together.

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From: [identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com - Date: 27/6/11 10:22 (UTC) - Expand
From: [identity profile] montecristo.livejournal.com
America stands almost alone without legislation for paid maternity leave.

...and maternity leave should be forced on people by law by government, whether the company they run is large enough and profitable enough to support it or not. RIGHT.

SOMEONE should pay for it, right? Everyone should have everything they want at everyone else's expense. I wonder anymore how many people there are still left who think the government shouldn't run everything, right down to tying everyone's shoes in the morning.
From: [identity profile] mintogrubb.livejournal.com
Well, if the government never co erced people to all drive on the same side of the road, there would be traffic chaos.

So, I guess it is no big deal if the govt tells all employers

"Lookit, you all got the hang of driving a truck on the right side of the road, now try and get used to the idea that you can't pay a woman any less than you pay a man for driving it. then , when you have got that straight , how about we all give people time off to look after their kids? I mean , you corporate people want literate and numerate people with reasonable social skills entering the workplace when your current workers retire, right? So, how about doing your bit to make that happen - give parents day care, parental leave and stuff that doesn't cost much but pays long term dividends?"

See, up till now, the govt has reaped the benefits of parents who brought up kids for nothing - but now , women do not look to motherhood as a career option like they used to.
You want to hire people, you gotta raise the incentives.

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