What *is* socialism , exactly? Is Obama really a Socialist?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

I have ben encouraged to write as a person and not a spokesman for the Green party, and been told tha I dissect some great issues.
So cop this one folks - Is Obama ~really~ a Socialist; What Socialism is and if it has any effect on society. My own opinions coming right up.

First, lets define what we mean. I will let the egg heads go for a dictionary definition , but here is the working man's definition.

Socialism is where Society, usually thru' an elected government, does things.
Now, all Communists are Socialists by default, but not all Socialists ae communists. How come/
Well, Communism does not allow private property. A men may own a suit or a car under a communist system, but the land and all the means of production , including businesses that create wealth thru providing services like transport - these are all owned by the state.

Now, Socialists cover everyone who wants some sort of state intervetion , be it total or partial.

By this yardstick, if the State has an education policy and nothing else, it is partly Socialist and partly run on Capitalist Private Enterprise - and we could call it a Mixed Economy. but ist isn't really that mixed. Now suppose the State builds and runs hospitals as well?
Then the economy is getting even more mixed, with more Socialism, more state control.

Now, a country like the UK has currently got State Education and State Healthcare running alonside capitalist, private alternatives. It's a mixed economy.

Now, I have heard Americans on Youtube videos saying that Obama is a Communist, a Socialist and a Muslim. that he isn't even an American citizen. lets check some facts , shall we?
he was born in Hawaii. A US State when i went to school, and probably still is. if he were not allowed to stand for Prez, I am sure somebody would have told him so by now.

But is he a Communist? Evidently not - he has never advocated that all land , and all business concerns in America be turned over to State Ownership. So that claim is wrong . Period, as Americans might put it.

But, is he a Socialist? weell, how far does he want State control to go?
Are there State Schools in America? to that extent, he has got Socialist credentials.
To be frank, I think that Americans have been taking tax dollars to educate their kids for longer than most americans know.

Yet, State funded Education is a Socialist principle. Obama is therefore as much a Socialist as George Bush was. Not much, in other words. A country can only rid itself of the' taint' of Socialism when it can honestly say that the schools and hospitals are all privately funded. like thesewage system and the railroads. Thatcher said that in England "we buried Socialism". she lied. she cut it back, but never managed to kill it.
so long as the State controls any aspect of goods and services to the public, you have state controllled industry.

Now, as I have said before, the State can often run a good service. Nobody complains about the London Fire Brigade, nobody is running to buy up the sewers and even if they bought up the postal services, they would not be able to run a service to the outer hebrides and make a profit.

The best solution is a mixed economy. it is noteworthy that although Obama dragged thousands of people into the healthcare system in America, it is seems it's still funded by private insurance. it isn't truly socialist.

Comments

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Socialism is something that is bad.
Obama is something that is bad.
Bad is bad
Therefore Obama is Socialism.

[christinablue.livejournal.com]

This makes no sense.

High cholesterol is something that is bad.
Is Obama high cholesterol, as well? Haha.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Makes sense to me :P

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

So cop this one folks - Is Obama ~really~ a Socialist; What Socialism is and if it has any effect on society

Who gives a damn, your a Brit and in British political life, WTF has American Socialism got to do with that?

Now, Socialism from a Brit POV, everyone comes up with the NHS, which really isn't Socialism at it's best, everyone pays a varying rate towards it (according to their earnings), and gets out "What they need", and just like any socialist system, it's overworked, waiting times are hellish and there's definately a great lack of options. (I was told more once that as I wasn't going to agree to surgery, there's bugger all they can do! They lied) and trying to get dental care from it isn't fun.

even if they bought up the postal services, they would not be able to run a service to the outer hebrides and make a profit.

That really is a surprise, have you tried sending a parcel recently? it's almost second mortgage time, and god forbid you want to send anything with a bit of weight to it, private parcel companies are often cheaper.

so long as the State controls any aspect of goods and services to the public, you have state controllled industry.

The state is over-controlling as it is, do you still get pirate radio stations in London? have you managed to find any pirate TV stations yet now we've all gone digital there are still many analogue TV's out here yet no-one seems to have filled that obvious void.

Hawaii

Hmmmm, I contest that Hawaii is a legal state of America personally, but hell when there's sugar available (Which was in reality pretty much like Oil is to us today) Who's going o question the illegal annexing of a sovereign country.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Is using online slang part of your new Me And Myself image? ;-)
Also, can we have a cut?

Now to the topic. Please explain again the relation between socialism and communism, and how all communists are socialists by default.

Also, extra exercise: by that yardstick, is nazional-sozialismus aka fascism also socialism or not?

And by the way you still mentioned the Green party so this post doesn't count as you Being Myself debut. :-P

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

I'm sure we've all heard this one before...

SOCIALISM: You have two cows. State takes one and give it to someone else.

BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM: You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and as many eggs as the regulations say you should need.

COMMUNISM: You have two cows. State takes both of them and gives you milk.

FASCISM: You have two cows. State takes both of them and sell you milk.

NAZISM: You have two cows. State takes both of them and shoot you.

BUREAUCRACY: You have two cows. State takes both of them, kill one and spill the milk in system of sewage.

CAPITALISM: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

but, you knew that right?

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

I think I'm starting to like his new image.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

One cut delivered. Hopes you likes it, precioussss.

right, Socialism = society, AKA the State doing things for the people.
now, as under Communism, The State does Everything, all commies are socialists.
howevs, not all socialists believe in Total State Ownership, so - say it with me

"All commies are socialists by default, but not all socialists are communists."

To what extend did Socialism feature inHitlers 3rd Riech? did he have any state run services laid on - to that extent, national Socialism treally was Socialism.
however, it is also possible to argue that since the individual was there for the State, and not vice versa, that it was also Fascism. Let us say 'Totalitarian' in nature.

ok, so I mentioned the freen party - at least I never claimed I was the Pope. :)

[magna-carter.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I get incredibly amused by Americans' idea of what 'socialism' is. And how they fear it so hard. What exactly is there to fear? I fear profiteering companies more than I fear the government.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

But see, companies are never corrupt, they do everything exactly according to an Econ101 simplistic supply vs demand model that is easy to understand and involving things like 'government' and 'real life' in it just gums it up and prevents the invisible hand from solving everything.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

See, that. And hey, don't judge "Americans" by the morons you see on the television. I think probably at least half of America knows what the word actually means and don't really have much problem with it.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

And how they fear it so hard. What exactly is there to fear?

If you let the socialists in, the Commies won't be far behind ;)

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

From having read editorials in the Orange County Register, I now know that the Free Market is a sentient and benevolent entity and all we have to do is leave everything to be solved by commerce...

[christinablue.livejournal.com]

To me, Big Industry is in bed with Big Government, so um, whether you call it "Socialism" or "Capitalism" - in the end, you've still got two large systems trying to use any means to control us.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

To me, Big Industry is in bed with Big Government,

hehe and as neither of them bother takind precautions, we're gonna end up with a bastard child :S

in the end, you've still got two large systems trying to use any means to control us.

TV says Spend, Guvmint wants Taxes and fines you if you're too broke to pay up on time, Great system hu?

I wonder if Gerry will allow for a few Anarchist beliefs in the next Green Party Sales pitch :)

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Um, thanks for shedding light on one of the great controversies our time. Will you also help us to investigate other Tea Party allegations? Do federal government czarships involve actual czars, is Obama turning the US into 19th century Russia? Will death panels decide the dates of our deaths in the future? Are there really FEMA internment camps?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Will you also help us to investigate other Tea Party allegations?

Sure - if I can help , I will. you might do better by recruiting some pro journalists , though. I here they busted Nixon's arse while i was still in school swatting for exams.

Do federal government czarships involve actual czars,

Er, no - we use the same term in England, long with Supremo, for anyone appointed to lead a posse of dudes to sort out any kind of problem

is Obama turning the US into 19th century Russia?
Well, as it was a monarchy, I don't think so!
I can't see any similarities, anyway.

Will death panels decide the dates of our deaths in the future?
Again , I don't think so - but check with the New York Times, I rather think they would kick up a ruckus if anyone they knew of was planning that sorta crap - and they tend to know an awful ot.

Are there really FEMA internment camps?
Again , I don't think so, but see the NYT, or google it and see what comes up.

[ygrii-blop.livejournal.com]

I think maybe a better topic for discussion would be, "Is Obama really a liberal?" I humbly submit he's nothing more than Bush Lite. You get all the war, all the oil, but none of the rhetoric. There, see? I just wrote a great marketing slogan. Someone pay me.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

I would argue that with Obama you get more rhetoric.
But then as a fiscal conservative I thought we got loberal lite with Bush.

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

First, lets define what we mean. I will let the egg heads go for a dictionary definition , but here is the working man's definition.

Socialism is where Society, usually thru' an elected government, does things.

Be careful not to smoke too close to that strawman.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

So, come on then - you have a go at defining Socialism.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

First your definition is Socialism is flawed as it is so overly broad pretty much anything shy of Anarcho-Capitalism can be called a mixed socialist system.

A more accurate description of the term is...

"An Economic-Political system in which control of decision making and ownership of the means of production is centralized with the national government."

The main difference between Socialism and Communism is that Communists are at least in theory also Anarchists in that they replace 'government' with 'the people' and at least in theory no government at all.


Outside of possibly Cuba there are no true socialist countries left anymore because it has become self evident that real Socialism simply cannot work and always results in endemic poverty and chronic shortages of resources.

As far as Communism, that has never existed on a national scale. Even the Russians and Chinese never attempted to implement Communism holding it as a supposed end goal in their struggle against Capitalism but not something that could be implemented 'yet'.

Now. before we look at Obama lets look at the so called blended economies of Europe and see what they should properly be called.

In European Socialism we have a system which contains centralization of 'essential' resources within the government and a strong governmental regulatory control over the means of production in the remaining industries which are not socialized. There is also a a strong welfare state which is not technically a part of socialism

Well this certainly has strong socialist elements, however the level of regulatory control over industry and private enterprise with the extent of welfare policies means it is not blended with actual capitalism but something else. These economic policies fall somewhere between Fascism and Mercantilism without really matching either because they are not outright protectionist necessarily but there really is no good historical name for the economic system, if the name Corporatism had not already been used to mean something else it would be a perfect term to use here. The strong welfare state is also something which in modern colloquial usage is called Socialism but really isn't as there are far more Socialist countries than anything in Europe which have no welfare state elements at all(China until Tienanmen Square for example).

So now lets look at Obama. First before we can say what President Obama is we must recognize that there is a difference between what he would do were he Supreme Emperor of the US as opposed to merely the President because for all the power the office of the President of the United States has it is rather limited (by design even).

On an actual policy level lets look at his defining legislative actions

1) While he didn't pass it he supported and backed the economic bailout in the waning days of the Bush administration that benefited large corporations at the expense of the people and nationalized their debts.

2) He nationalized several key Industries most importantly 2 of the 3 largest employers in the country with GM and Chrysler.

3) Pass an economic 'Stimulus' Bill which focuses 100% of the stimulus on Government programs

4) Pass a Health Care reform Bill, which centralizes control of of health care decision making and funding with Federal bureaucracies and benefits corporations at the expense of the people.

5) Nationalized Higher Education funding.

6) Expanded federal control over primary and secondary eduction.

In other words at every step of the way he has worked to centralize control in Washington or a handful of heavily regulated corporations. While this is not technically 'Socialism' per se, it is exactly in line with what passes for Socialism in the blended economies of Europe and about as far from the Free Market economy most Americans wish to retain.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

However, that was Obama as filtered through the lens of realpolitik and not what he would do if he had unlimited control. Reading his writings and listening to his rhetoric when surrounded by 'friends' it is clear that he would go much further towards Soviet Style Socialism than Europe currently has (not all the way probably but closer) because in his own words he considers the 'Free Market' to be the enemy.

So is he a Socialist? Certainly not a pure one, probably no closer than Glen Beck is to a Libertarian but he is probably more of a socialist than any mainstream politician out there short of possibly Hugo Chavez and Castro in Cuba but his desires are tempered by the fact that he would never get legislative support for more centralized control.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

Socialism is where Society, usually thru' an elected government, does things.

No -- that would be a representative government. By your definition, anything this has elections is Socialism that that's not right.

Now, Socialists cover everyone who wants some sort of state intervetion , be it total or partial.


No, Socialism is what you have central planning by the government.
There *are* socialist traits found in almost every government, but you're overstating the issue quite a bit.

Otherwise I agree with your points. Many economies are mixed-economies, but not to where you can say "They are socialist", since that implies central planning as the defining trait.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

that would be a representative government
my bad. when I said " do things2 , i don't mean just make laws , i mean do things as in providing services like healthcare, education, housing and suchlike for it's citizens.

We had an elected guvvermint in Queen Victorias day, but it did not get into Socialism. well, it did , but called it the 'Royal Mail.'

as for central planning - well, like i said, most govrnments have some . it can work in certain areas , and you would be hard put to find a country where the State relies totally on the Private Sector to do eveeryhing. Even in the US of A, you get 'public schools' and you mean they are publicly funed thru' taxation.

But yes, I agree that some societies are more socialistic than others and real Socialists wan to see more, not less State control and State ownership.

I'm not a birther but...

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

As I understand it the orginal controversy had to do with the question of wether he had been born before or after Hawaii was incorperated into the Union(Dec 1959), and if his parents were US citizens at the time.

What started a simple legal inquiry gets picked up by internet conspiracy theorists and next morning you've got "OMG OBAMA'S A KENYAN SLEEPER AGENT!" remember these are the same guys who think that aircraft exhaust = mind control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory).

I may not like him but as far as I'm concerned he was born in Hawaii, Hawaii is now a state, His mother is a US citizen and thus he can run for(and take) office.

Re: I'm not a birther but...

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

but as far as I'm concerned he was born in Hawaii, Hawaii is now a state, His mother is a US citizen and thus he can run for(and take) office.

Who had the final say in that? It was after all, originaly an illegal invasion right?

+1, would watch again

[thies.livejournal.com]

Killer Nazi Reptile Communists From Space vs Godzilla

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think we should all be allowed to have our own definitions. While it may not make for good logical discussion, who cares, this is the internet ;)

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

and it would be no different than what half the people argue anyway...

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Well, you have two cows...

Oh damn. I was beaten to it.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

You guys are just not following along, we already did that whole schtick. In fact YOU started it....Sheesh!!

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

This working man's definition as follows.

Socialism is where politicians pass laws to take money from those that earn it and more laws to give it to those that do not earn it, to buy the votes from those that do not earn it.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

LOL! That is a good one , and does have some relevance to the old British Labour party!