Should Britain have a voluntary Civil Guard ?

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

So, rampaging mobs in London have been forced to turn and run when confronted by chaps waving hockey sticks and cricket stumps. Even Millwall residents who were completely unarmed were sufficient to deter some looters who turned up on their patch - one wonders how well the citizens of London would be able to keep law and order given the proper training and some decent kit.

But, the Brits have also got a petition in the air about repealing the ban on capital punishment. So, should we judicially execute people? A writer on the Times letter page, claiming to work for an organisation called Amicus, says that in the USA, the States that have the death penalty have a higher murder rate per capita than the states that have banned executions. True or false, guys? Tell us if you know.

But, if rioting in the UK continues to be a feature of daily life, then it may be that cops and even civilians may have to resort to lethal force to stop rampaging looters. So, I want to ponder the rights and wrongs of ordering troops to open fire. Of taking out an aggressor with a lethal blow from a baseball bat or similar.

It may even be necessary to declare a State of Emergency in a future crisis. If looters and rioters do not disperse, I am happy for a Home Secretary to issue orders for rioters to be shot at with live ammo, or for looters to be shot on sight. I just wonder if this may be counter productive, or what other effective means there are of preventing looting.

Guns are not on sale to the public (yet) but if they became available, would I use one? Permit their use by police or troops if I were in office? Whereas executions have little value as a deterrent, the use of hot lead or cold steel may well be effective in clearing a street of rioters. If it were absolutely needed to prevent mobs from setting fire to buildings, I would be happy to give the order, or to open fire myself, if need be.

Certainly, as recent experience has shown, the use of Wooden Hand Weapons (WHWs) is very effective against rampaging mobs. These people are mainly opportunists and have a reputation of fleeing rather than standing their ground when confronted by the righteous anger of the local people. I am therefore more in favour of allowing the people in the community the right to carry WHWs or any other Effective Weapons to deter rioters, muggers and other ne'er do wells, rather than arming the police or calling upon the Troops.

So long as we accept that we are only prepared to kill as a last resort, and that any citizens out on patrol on the streets are competently led by someone in authority with the necessary training, and that they have the means to capture and hand over any suspects to the Civil Powers, I don't see any problems in allowing citizens to police their own areas. Nor should we deter people from stepping up to defend their property or fellow citizens when confronted with Anti Social Elements. Britain has got too many criminals already. Perhaps a few going home in body bags is something that we should accept as the price of having a safe space to live and work.

Volunteers should be encouraged to come forward and receive training in first aid, traffic control, assisting with the aftermath of natural disasters, as well as riot control and civil defence. A bounty could be paid to them and Civil Guard created that would ease the workload on the police. certain features, like volunteers and First Aid Training already exist in the UK. What I propose it simply to widen its scope. The bounty paid would ease the welfare budget, and give people a more useful role in society than just drawing a welfare cheque. Volunteers should be suitably kitted out with proper batons, helmets and riot shields, of course, as well as proper uniforms and anything else needed to protect and serve the community.

Obviously, America and other countries have more experience of this sort of thing already. I just wonder how this works out in practice.

Comments

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

It is in dire situations like these that a society can show its true worth. If you guys easily allow yourselves, under the pressure of the circumstances, to betray who you are and succumb to the temptation to take extreme measures that run counter to your values as a society, then you're worthless as a society. Sorry for the harsh words, but difficult situations reveal the darker side of societies. If these ideas that you say are floating in the air ever become a reality, I'm seeing nothing good coming in the long run for Britain.

Breivik's atrocity in Oslo might've changed Norway in a way, they say. That's yet to be seen. If these riots change Britain in a way that would make the darkest dystopian novel look like a fairy tale, it'll mean you guys have learned nothing from this episode.

Something in your words gave me a short glimpse of brown-shirted youth marching on the streets with torches in their hands. Somehow I couldn't shake off that feeling.

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

I must admit that the feeling that someone, or something, is pushing Europe and the world toward a remake of the 1930's, has been increasing as the time passes.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

It's a natural and inevitable progression.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Reality's author is a lazy bastard who got bored with peace and prosperity and so decided to repeat himself by rehashing the kind of chaos seen in the Victorian era all over again. The dictatorial society expanding its power in the Third World, anarchy in the First.....say hello to the new 1880s. Now we just need bomb-throwing assassins targeting world leaders in a single wave and everything old will be new again. >.>

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the harsh words, but difficult situations reveal the darker side of societies. If these ideas that you say are floating in the air ever become a reality, I'm seeing nothing good coming in the long run for Britain.

Well, if it ever becomes a matter for a national referendum, I shall vote against the death penalty.

As for a Civil Guard, I believe that America has a National Guard already. In the UK, it s not unusual to see volunteers like the St John's Ambulance Brigade on duty at football games. A Civil Guard would, ideally, wear green shirts, not brown ones. they would also be taught First Aid, Traffic Control, fire fighting and flood defence drills. I would also say that by allowing youngsters to earn a bit of money, as opposed to just getting it for sitting about at home, we would also be allowing disadvantaged kids the opportunity to learn marketable skills and do something really useful. The training could also cover mechanics and other trades, and be a possible entry point into the regular fire service, the Police , and other occupations.

And what is wrong with giving young lads a smart uniform to wear and a bit of a purpose in life beyond getting drunk and fighting each other?

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Nothing wrong, I'm sure. Especially if you can find a charismatic leader to set the goals and lead the youth towards said purpose. For the betterment of the nation. Right?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

This book might be enlightening for you: http://jim.com/hayek.htm

[terminator44.livejournal.com]

The closest equivalent to what you're proposing would be State Defense Forces, not the National Guard. Less than half of U.S. states have these, their numbers are small, and the few times they are used it's usually in conjunction with the Guard. Really, though, the militia as it's traditionally known has all but disappeared from the U.S. For better or worse, the military has been completely professionalized.

Back to your suggestion, I don't see the idea doing much good. The riots will likely have subsided by the time such an organization could be created, and if the police aren't being mobilized then they won't be either. Honestly, would making it official really be necessary? There's no reason people can't form something like Neighborhood watches or make citizens arrests when they see looting (don't know if the latter is allowed in your country, but if it isn't, then it should be).

My main problem with disasters like these is that the authorities actively try to quash any attempt by citizens to help out on their own. This is a problem in the U.S. as well (I'm not sure if the people in charge of FEMA have a steel rod shoved up their asses, or they have to put it there themselves).

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Give that power to the wrong person and you wind up with a Lord Protector.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

"says that in the USA, the States that have the death penalty have a higher murder rate per capita than the states that have banned executions. True or false, "

This would be irrelevant. States with higher murder rates could just as well have more police officers per capita.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

I take your point on that. However, it cannot be shown that the threat of being killed oneself had any deterrent effect on the homicidal maniacs among us.

Unless you can show us different, of course.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

States with higher murder rates could just as well have more police officers per capita.

Why would that correlate to a higher murder rate?

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you'd need a Civil Guard if you had a Second Amendment.

Just saying.

It may even be necessary to declare a State of Emergency in a future crisis.

Remember this oldie but goodie?

Our Sovereign Lord the Queen chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the act made in the first year of King George I, for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God Save the Queen!

I think the Brits should wait a year and really examine where the failures were. I think then you will not over react, but act judiciously. Riots, explosions of this kind, generally don't reoccur right away. It's been almost 20 years since the Rodney King riots in LA, and that was the last large civil disturbance I remember in the US. Of course, you're mileage may vary.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you'd need a Civil Guard if you had a Second Amendment.

Is that the one about giving ppl theright to bear arms?

The only thing is that the 2nd Amendment is not gonna get loads of kids up of the streets and learning useful life skills like first aid, discipline and getting along together.

The Civil Guard will be not just an instrument of state policy, but a youth training programme , as well as an anti riot measure.

And of course we don't need guns to defend our high streets - Brits can do that with cricket bats and hockey sticks, as we have already shown.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

is not gonna get loads of kids up of the streets and learning useful life skills like first aid, discipline and getting along together

No, but then that is not its purpose. I am not sure you can make a law that insures that people "learn useful skill, be disciplined and get along" and still call yourself a free society. Those are emergent virtues from a society that is already law abiding and disciplined.

Brits can do that with cricket bats and hockey sticks, as we have already shown

That is fine if you are young, and fit and willing to hit hard. Those who can't do that have to wait for the police, and often wait in vain. Also, didn't the riot police act just the same way toward those groups banding together to protect there communities as it did toward the hooligans? I had read that in Manchester the police dispersed a neighborhood protection group armed as you describe.

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

It's been almost 20 years since the Rodney King riots in LA, and that was the last large civil disturbance I remember in the US.

Wasn't there something in Cleveland or Cincinatti back about 2002 or so?

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

I don't think they were on the same level, but yeah, Cincinnati in 2001. And I'm not counting the Seattle WTO riots or post sports championship hooliganism, they are in a different class.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Oh Jeezy Creezy, I'm 'bout tired of listening to Brits losing their heads over a little rioting. SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING! ANYTHING! AAAHHHHH!

Here's what you do:

Clean up the glass, mop up the blood, tear down the burned parts, and forget it ever happened.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Here's the deal: rioting is like a social seizure. They come. Randomly. You don't really know why. There's no real explanation. It's a hiccup. An aberrant release of something, from the bowels. And like all polite, grown-up people do, you ignore it when someone farts.

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

Death penalty will not do you much good. In fact,it may cause more strife. One of the problems we face in the USA is that states with the death penalty are far more statistically likely to apply to blacks than to whites who committ similar crimes. Naturally, black americans have noticed this, leading to incresed racial tension.

As far as letting ordinary citizens defend their property with blunt instruments, I say go for it. I'd even go so far as to say that you guys should be able to keep firearms in your homes.

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Given the choice between a cricket bat and a BPS loaded with 00 buck, I know what I am choosing, every time.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

They also cost a shit load of money to prosecute and execute.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

I agree with yr assessment of the death penalty as it applies in the States. i do not see iit being much use to us in Europe either.

I was fortunate enough to have gone from from living in the back streets to being taken and put in an old fashioned Brit boarding school where even boys like me were allowed to join cadet units , as well as learning to do horse riding, fencing, boxing, martial arts and shooting as hobbies.

Consequently, I have some experience of handling a rifle on a shooting range - and I would not want to see any firearm deployed in untrained and amateur hands. Even a shotgun needs a good deal of skill and regular maintainable to be effective.

Just letting a guy buy a gun and take it home is not how to do things. The Swiss militia is an effective body of highly disciplined people, but unless we have that sort of conscription in England, I don't think the average Brit is safe with gun.

Using blunt instruments is a lot less dangerous to the bystander and the guy across the street - forget what you see on TV , I know from experience that even a Nato rife bullet will go through a brick wall. It could easily kill anyone sitting in an armchair on the other side. I would be reluctant to use firearms except in a dire emergency, and when guys with hockey sticks and the like can clear the streets, I think it best to give them hard hats, a proper riot baton and a riot shield, and let the local people police their own areas under the direction of local community leaders in times of trouble. It would also teach kids about self reliance, discipline , community service and much more if the volunteers met and trained together on a regular basis.

And this sort of Community spirit, belonging to something better than a street gang, that is something lacking in the UK right now.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Why yes, when there's a bonfire going on, let's add high-octane fuel to it. What could possibly go wrong?

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

Well, look what happened when an ad hoc group of local people charged the scum who came to loot their shops. The looters fled empty handed. that is a good result, as far as I am concerned.

We have to realise that if we lose a few rioters in a baton charge, it is no great loss to the community. And it may be that we may lose a few good men ourselves, but then , we have always had to fight for anything worth having.

Kit must be first class, training must be thorough, but as long as men fight hard behind their local leaders, there is no reason why we should not fight and win against the sort of scum who are only out for easy pickings.