Erin Pizzey tells her own story.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

http://rebukingfeminism.blogspot.com/2009/01/erin-pizzey-one-womans-story.html

Ok, that is the link.
Me? I reckon she did the right thing.
I am not sure what benefit I might have gained from blowing up Biba, a store in london - but if her refuges had been there for my mother, it certainly would have helped.
I am suprised that some feminists still attack her - and no, I don't subscribe to Harriet Harman's view that men cannot contribute anything to the family.

But what's your take on Erin Pizzey, I wonder?

Comments

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

She seems interesting. It's hard to tell from just that article, which is obviously written from her point of view. I'm also loathe to comment on feminist issues, because it's a field where I know I am not terribly knowledgeable.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Biba was bombed because the women's movement thought it was a capitalist enterprise devoted to sexualizing women's bodies.


The whole gosh-darned women's movement?

Then I guess the 16th Street Church Bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing) proves that every white person in America in 1963 was in the Klan.

Of course there is another answer -- outside of movements like Nazism & Stalinism, you don't do anyone any favors by taking even personal experiences with the least pleasant people in movements as representative of the whole. She had, if she is to be believed as an honest narrativist, terrible experiences with militant, Marxist oriented feminists two generations ago that continued. She concludes, as most dishonest critics of any ideology do, that this is representative.

There's a lesson here -- the most radical and militant of ANY movement are to be avoided like the plague...and the people who describe them as indicative of the entire movement without bothering to prove it lose their right to be taken seriously as critics. Which is a shame because if her narrative had been restricted to the danger of radicals instead of propping up the radicals as the entirety of the movement, it would be a great cautionary.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

The whole gosh-darned women's movement?
The leadership of the movement inside the UK, then.

It is an interesting thing that 'Reform' magazine says that "the views expressed in this publication are not neccesarily those of the editor."

Me, I like that. It seems, however, that there were people trying to bomb Biba's and that Erin Pizzey was not ok with that level of violence against the system.

Me, I count Erin Pizzey as a feminist, but I have read online feminists who don't. Maybe one problem of the Feminist movement is that anyone can join it and anyone does.

The fact is , though, that she started the refuge movement in the UK, not her critics who simply hijacked her idea for their own anti male agenda.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

The leadership of the movement inside the UK, then.


She demonstrates potentially that some ministers in the mid-90s were potentially ideological descendents of the people she had bad experiences with in the early 1970s.

That's not really the same thing and the big problem with her critique. She has a good object lesson about the destructive role of absolutists and radicals and uses it to say an entire movement with a long history both prior to and past the 1970s is irredeemably anti-male and radical.

Great polemics. Not so great honest basis for debate.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

I agree here.

I found it a bit troubling how quick Pizzey was to demonize feminists as a group -- calling them "dedicated to destroying the family" and all of that. And you know, assuming feminist = lesbian and lesbian = omgMAN HATER in there at least once (..seriously, "radical lesbians?").

About halfway through, the narrative derails almost entirely to a "but what about the men?" argument, also, which is... unproductive, to say the least. How dare women want refuges for female domestic violence survivors and their children to not be run by men, when they're running from men and may be deeply traumatized and afraid! How dare women protest the idea of needing a man to be any sort of a family! Women are EVIL and vindictively keep fathers from seeing their children at all simply because they can! Evil feminists are keeping the poor men down! Etc., etc. Lovely. No wonder this was posted at an MRA blog; it's very in keeping with their beliefs about feminists.

Also, her comment about domestic violence "not being a gendered [issue]" to her rings very false when the majority of abusers are men and the majority of victims are women and young children.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Did you check out some of the other blog entries? As soon as I saw the titles I started to laugh. Yep, this is a credible source.

[curseangel.livejournal.com]

I didn't until just now and... wow, lol. That blog. Wow. Totally a credible and unbiased source! Just the news from this one, guys! Just like Fox!

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Biba wasn't even bombed by the specific feminist group Pizzey was briefly invovled in -- look up "Biba" and "bombing" and you get a British version of the Bader Meinhof Gang called "The Angry Brigade". Pizzey makes no distinction between members of her group who may have known and approved of the plot and the entire feminist movement.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

Also, her comment about domestic violence "not being a gendered [issue]" to her rings very false when the majority of abusers are men and the majority of victims are women and young children.

Hmmm... is this because 'young children 'cannot by definition be 'male' at the same time as they are being 'young children' ?

Like, have you any idea how much harm it does to a small child, repeatedly seeing his or her own mother being violently beaten up by a drunken father?

When I was 19, my dad threw me out of the house. That's right, he turned me out onto the street because I tried to protect my mother from his violent attacks.

Sorry, but as a male myself, I say that domestic violence is as much my problem as it is for women in the same situation.

For boys over the age of 14, the availability of refuge space is still not on a par with spaces for women.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

"There's a lesson here -- the most radical and militant of ANY movement are to be avoided like the plague...and the people who describe them as indicative of the entire movement without bothering to prove it lose their right to be taken seriously as critics. "

Absolutely, it is a good thing that there aren't any recent Political movements in the US where people hold the fringe extremists to be representative of the whole.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

If you shove your tongue any further in your cheek, you're gonna poke a hole.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

To start with, I'm not about to take any article on a MRA blog seriously. If you want to advance your cause you may want to vet your sources more carefully.

Next, I agree completely with malasadas, even if what she has described did happen in exactly that way, to use it to discredit all of feminism is distasteful and dishonest.

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

the MRA blog liifted the story complete from the Daily Mail, but even the Left wing guardian , in an interview with her acknowledges the salient points - that the feminist Movement, such as it was in the UK at the time, threw her out for refusing to stand bhind the bombing of Biba.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/26/gender.uk1

Seeing as ms Pizzey has successfuly sued before, the fact that the mail and the blog can both run the extract as her own work leads me to suspect that this is genuinely her view.

Me, Ii draw a distinction between 1st and second wave feminiism, and I believe that the third wave was demonstrably different from the second as well.

To me, Pizzey was the authentic Feminist of the era, not the women who wanted to bomb Biba, but that's my opinion.

Speaking as someone who actually grew up in a home with a violent and drunken father, I think that Ms Pizzey must be credited with having the idea and carrying it through.

I also make her right in saying that being male does not equal being dysfunctional. Whenever WAFE have used the slogan ' until women and children are safe' on their posters, it has always been a woman and a girl until recently, and I flagged this up to them.

The problem is that domestic violence is mostly perpetrated by men, but it harms boys as well - a fact that often goes unacknowledged.

I am not using Erin pizzeys quote to discredit feminism as an entire movement, but I think it is a valid criticism of 2nd Wave Feminism that it got hijacked by a virulently anti male agenda, and that we can be pro women without being anti men.

Equal pay, a big plank in the progressive platform , came about in the UK through women taking direct action in the workplace , and bypassing the Unions to go straight to the Labour Government, who produced legislation that was taken up around the world.

Again, this was more sort of mainstream that the radical anti capitalist version that Pizzey says she found in the feminist movement at the time.

In short, Pizzey and people like her went with existing structures, or created institutions and movemnts that took hold and are around today. For her, and for the Dagenham strikers, it was not about abandoning men and the family and destroying capitalism , it was about changing the law and bringing in fairer conditions.

I don't know if she describes herself as a Feminist, but she did more for families in our position than bombing Biba would ever accomplish .

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

but I think it is a valid criticism of 2nd Wave Feminism

But she didn't make that distinction did she? This article was posted in 2008 so many reading it will rightfully draw from it a criticism of the modern feminist movement. She also did not recognize the radical feminists of the day as a fringe movement, she claimed they took over the movement.

Do I agree with radical feminism? No, I feel much more can be accomplished by taking a moderate stance. But I can certainly understand the anger and hatred behind many of the 2nd wavers at the time.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

I've made this same argument with atheism. Shrill voices on one side are an essential part of the movement. If the most radical thing you hear is a moderate, rational view and the most reactionary thing you hear is "barefoot and pregnant" the result is most often an opinion between moderate and reactionary. By hearing the extreme radical view the result changes to the center by showing that the moderate view isn't as radical as it would otherwise appear.

This has been shown to be successful and is the tactic that Fox news has used since its inception. Be way to the right, thus drive general opinion to the right. It is also a basic tactic of negotiation - you always ask for more then you are likely to get because you know you'll have to trade something away. A friend of mine who is into game theory told me that generally the best strategy is tit-for-tat. Escalate a response equal in scale to your opponent. IMO, liberals in the US generally aren't doing this well and that is why they are losing.

Pizzey apparently wants to be one of the moderate voices which is fine because they serve a purpose as well, by coming in behind the radicals and discussing the moderate view. In that sense the militant feminists will make her life easier. She should be thanking them for that.

[3fgburner.livejournal.com]

Problem is, that when you have a bunch of batshit-crazy people on one fringe, you run the risk of having your entire movement painted that way.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Well, look how well that has worked for Republicans. We will be in a situation where the leadership will eventually prevail and everyone will heave a sigh of relief that the batshit fringe didn't win. Unfortunately, we will end up with policies that are far right of center. The thing is, the batshit fringe never wins on either side, so there was really nothing to worry about in the first place.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

You know this is odd -- I keep looking up Biba and bombing and what I get is an organization called The Angry Brigade. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Angry_Brigade)

Pizzey's story doesn't mention whether or not what she is talking about is a plan that originated within the feminist circles she had experience with or if they just knew about it and approved. She DOES make it sound as if they CARRIED OUT THE BOMBING when she says Biba was bombed BECAUSE feminists hated it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but what the heck?

[mintogrubb.livejournal.com]

I was not in on the conversation , but even the left wing guardian admits that she was thrown out because she was not prepared to go along with the plot to bomb Biba - maybe the Angry Brigade got there first?

Even so, nobody is saying that Radical Feministism put up an agenda that was 'sex positive', and encouraged a positive attitude to responsible male behavoiur at the time.

Ii know it was not a first hand account, but was it Belle Mooney who told the story of a freind of hers who had a baby boy , and was offered commiserations 'because she had to raise one of the enemy'? If it wasn't Belle Mooney, then who was it?

See, that sort of thinking was in the air back then , and I don't think you can really talk about having social progress unless you can come up with, and promote, a positive role for men in society.

You want to say that 2nd wave feminists did have a positive role for men back then ? Ok - cite yr sources , please.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I'm saying her narrative is simplistic and fishy given the attribution she gives for a bombing that was not carried out by an explicitly feminist group.

Her sources are her narrative. I gave my own back up a few.

I don't doubt there are destructively radical voices in 2nd wave feminism.

I don't accept the premise that all of these anecdotes of them amount to the entire movement. I can easily do that to any movement in history and create the same distorted view.

It isn't honest and it isn't helpful.

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Why are we even discussing 2nd wave feminism? It is not valid in today's culture. Do you want me to admit that some 2nd wave feminists were angry man-haters? Fine, I will admit to that fact. But many were not, and even the ones that were made tremendous strides towards womens equality that cannot be discounted. I understand you are of the opinion that we should be focusing on gender neutral advancements but until we gain full equality that can't happen. If we move men and women forward at the same pace, then men will still be ahead won't they?

You seem to be using this article as a way to paint feminists in general in a bad light. In fact I can't help but notice that every time I make a post that showcases feminism or women in a positive way you immediately make a counter-post to show another side. Why do you think that is?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

She's describing part of the continual attack on the family which is out to undermine the support it provides society and we see today the effects of that ongoing war. I think she's right on.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Who's waging that war, against whom, and most importantly, to what purpose?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Depends on what level you want to deal with. I believe it is a spiritual war for the purpose of making mankind more immoral (or allowing it to be more immoral if you prefer). But you can look at it without that lens and still see people opposed to traditional family structures fighting against it for the purpose of validating their own preferences or possibly as revenge for the perceived injustices they've suffered.

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

I read the blog entry and I like it. Haven't read anything else by her though.