[identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
A few days ago, [livejournal.com profile] underlankers posted about a proposed ban on circumcision in San Francisco and specifically the horrendous anti-Semitic comic book drawn by a leading supporter of the ban.

I will confess that the ensuing discussion depressed me utterly.

I hope that I am not badly misrepresenting posters' contributions, but I was personally taken aback by how few addressed [livejournal.com profile] underlankers original observation about the absolute dripping Jew hatred in the portrayal of "Monster Mohel" as a supervillian, complete with hooked nose, scraggly beard and Hasidic dress. If anything has ever been more intended to play off of millenia old stereotypes of Jews in recent years, I haven't seen it.

I read more deeply regarding the controversy around circumcision as a violation of a baby's human rights and got a smidge more depressed as it got me thinking about what exactly are the LIMITS on cultural tolerance and acceptance and how we balance concern for human rights with fully understanding cultural practices that are not our own.



Let me open with two observations: First, I know that genital multilation and female genital mutilation in particular has been a serious question for human rights advocates. FGM, while not mandated religiously, is clearly a cultural practice that effects 100s of million women worldwide -- and in practice it varies from minor procedures to life altering removal of huge amounts of tissue. The statement from the World Health Organization cites no known health benefits from even the most minor practice. Those of you old enough may remember that female genital mutilation was very much in the news in the late 1990s and many international agencies were advocating for both education and laws to bar the practice.

By that similar reasoning, barring or discouraging male circumcision makes consistent sense for human rights advocates. A baby cannot consent. The health benefits of the practice are, at best, tentative. The procedure permanantly alters the appearance of his anatomy and there really is no way that it isn't painful. There is a bonafide controversy about whether or not male circumcision can be justified on any secular grounds. And, as the debate on FGM shows, there is a limit to how far we are willing to cede ground to cultural practices in the name of respecting perogatives not our own.

I am even willing to admit that there is some controversy about the practice among largely or entirely secular Jews, leading to the recent creation of a Brit Shalom as an alternative to the traditional Brit Milah. This is a pretty small minority, however, as all of the major branches of Judaism practice Brit Milah, and the ceremony is so important that non-Orthodox denominations (Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist) now perform Simchat Bat for baby girls.

My son just turned two, and his Brit Milah is still quite fresh in my mind. The ceremony itself was very emotionally draining for me -- forget the potential for pain involved (Josh's Mohel was a board certified MD as well and used anesthetic)...the little guy was only 8 days old, surrounded by a throng of people and under bright lights. That was melt down material right there, and it just seemed odd to then turn the day over to all the adults noshing on bagels and whitefish salad.

But it was also emotionally draining because of the enormity of it in symbolism both cultural and religious. The Brit Milah is not simply a ceremony, it is the bringing of the male child into the Covenant with G-d, and while the actual removal of the foreskin is a lifelong phsyical alteration, it is meant to represent the lifelong alteration of one's life as a member of the Jewish people. That Covenant comes with huge responsibilities: Torah, Talmud, and living life according to the Mitzvot given in Torah. It also comes with a birthright in the cultural heritage of Judaism and thousands of years of history as a people. The ceremony was his introduction into the continuity of the Jewish people and it is supposed to have meaningful implications for the rest of his life (interesting aside -- by tradition, we buried the foreskin under a tree in my mother-in-law's yard...when Josh is married, we are supposed to use a branch from that tree to make his Chuppah.) Small wonder that the non-Orthodox sects of Judaism have made an equivalent ritual welcoming girl children to the Covenant as well. Of life cycle rituals in Judaism, only Bar/Bat Mitzvah, Marriage and Death are on par.

To NOT have Brit Milah for my son would have meant that in all mainstream denominations of Judaism he would have had no options for participation -- not being called to read from Torah, not a Bar Mitzvah and not even a Jewish wedding. I cannot help but personally conclude that as a Jewish father of Jewish children that I would have been very remiss if we had NOT had a Brit Milah for our son and a Simchat Bat for our daughter. To not do so would mean they could not fully participate in Jewish life within any of the mainstream branches of the religion.

Yes, without circumcision at birth he could volunteer as an adult to undergo it -- at an age when the pain associated with it would be more likely to be remembered and the procedure would be far more complicated.

But I am also mindful of the arguments that assert it is a violation of human rights to enforce permanent bodily change upon an infant entirely incapable of consenting -- and I recognize that those arguments are perhaps logically consistent with both an entirely secular perspective and with the far more widespread scorn and activism against female circumcision.

What I am asking is where do people feel they are rightly able to draw the line on cultural and religious tolerance? How far are you willing to balance cultural and religious perogatives against principles and how do you know you have found the right place to make a, forgive me, "cut off point"?

And, with respect, could I please request that responses against the practice please attempt to demonstrate respect for Jewish culture and cultural practices? I've put a lot of personal material and feeling into this and would like to believe that a disagreement on the ritual practice does not have to come with disregard.

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Date: 8/6/11 18:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
Wow you've been prolific today. But, interesting post.
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Date: 8/6/11 18:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jlc20thmaine.livejournal.com
Taking it from another POV, it's not just the Jewish religion that this has an impact on, it's also those of the Muslim faith and many Christians as well.

Why haven't I heard a peep from the "separation of church and state crowd?" Or even the "keep you hand off my body group?"

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Date: 9/6/11 00:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paedraggaidin.livejournal.com
I haven't seen the ACLU come out on either side....

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Date: 8/6/11 18:28 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
Thanks for this post.

I am obviously in no way impartial on this issue. But it seems to me that it might be legitimate to differentiate a ritual that 1a) does not radically alter bodily function and 2a) profoundly connects a people-group across all space and time in a way specifically cited in its most central creeds from a ritual that 1b) is specifically intended to radically alter bodily function and 2b) is a utable cultural norm, rather than a creedal mandate.

Of course, I am also willing to cop to the charge of being a superstitious savage. Whatever. The empires and opinions of the goyim come and go. Elohay Avraham is forever.

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Date: 8/6/11 18:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Thankfully, we can just easily distinguish between "purely cosmetic" and "totally integral to cultural reproduction".

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Wait, what?

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Re: Wait, what?

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Date: 8/6/11 18:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
I honestly don't think it has much to do with people's sense of rights or consistency. It's just a reactionary backlash against perceived traditionalism and conservatism. It's knee-jerk liberalism. It's as shallow as that, and nothing more. It gives them something to be "angry" about, gives them a "cause", but most importantly, it serves a very important psychological function: the self-righteous emancipation from their daddy issues by way of moral superiority.

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Date: 8/6/11 18:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com
Wocka wocka wocka.

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Date: 8/6/11 19:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
Thank you for this very honest, open and heartfelt post.

I tend to be libertarian, meaning that I do not generally look too closely int men's souls nor try to force people from separate cultures to do things exactly as I would without some pretty compelling reason. I'm OK with blood sacrifice, for example. If a Santaria wants to cut a chicken's throat or if a Muslim wants a ritually slaughter a lamb at Eid al-Adha, I say more power to them. I'm also OK with Shi'a Islam's more bloody practices, like flagellation. I have no trouble with snake handlers, peyote eaters or Mormon underwear.

I draw the line, however, when the practices inflict significant pain or damage on another person without their consent. So, Thuggee knotted cords are right out. The Assassin's Creed cannot be tolerated no matter how cool the game looks on X-Box. Gen. Charles Napier and I are in full agreement on the practice of Sati. In this vein, FGM has to be put beyond the Pale. You cannot justify it with appeals to custom. Circumcision, on the other hand, is a deeply integrated part of a faith that has been practiced for thousands of years. It is a small injury, done at a time of life when the child will have no memory of and nothing but a cosmetic reminder of the event, no loss or change of function. To equate this with FGM is, to say the least, a stretch.

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Date: 9/6/11 03:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
So, its okay to torture animals - which is distinct from harming a human being?

Stay away from my dog!

Circumcision, on the other hand, is a deeply integrated part of a faith that has been practiced for thousands of years.

Appeal to longevity.

no loss or change of function

Untrue. There are nerve bundles in the removed foreskin.

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Date: 8/6/11 19:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
"I hope that I am not badly misrepresenting posters' contributions, but I was personally taken aback by how few addressed [info]underlankers original observation about the absolute dripping Jew hatred in the portrayal of "Monster Mohel" as a supervillian, complete with hooked nose, scraggly beard and Hassidic dress. If anything has ever been more intended to play off of millenia old stereotypes of Jews in recent years, I haven't seen it."

Maybe I'm just being optimistic but my take on that was that it was not worth commenting on beyond saying "Some people are assholes"

There was really nothing interesting to discuss about the comic. It was racist and there was no place for it in society, however it also is not terribly relevant to the issue of whether we should allow circumcision beyond the fact that one individual happened to be both a strong advocate for banning the practice and the producer of the comic.

The far more interesting and useful discussion revolved the actual practice of circumcision itself.


"What I am asking is where do people feel they are rightly able to draw the line on cultural and religious tolerance? How far are you willing to balance cultural and religious perogatives against principles and how do you know you have found the right place to make a, forgive me, "cut off point"?"

Hmm, how to put this.

I don't like circumcision of infants for any reason. That said it is an issue which ranks right about equal with not liking Jack Nicholson as an actor in terms of importance. I was circumcised as a baby and it has never bothered me and when my one biological son was born my wife wanted him circumcised for cosmetic reasons and I wasn't willing to fight her on the issue because it just wasn't important to me.

Ultimately I in the case of male circumcision far too much is made of it by both sides. There are no legitimate reasons for it and we probably shouldn't be doing it to babies but in 99% of cases it is not like any real or measurable harm will come if we do so.

So given that I really can't see any role for government to step in and interfere with the role of the parents. The potential harm they would be preventing is so miniscule there is no benefit to outlawing it.

On the other hand when it comes to Female Circumcision there is definite measurable long lasting harm and I don't care what ancestors did or your god tells you to do there is a role for society (probably through the state but other agencies could be possible as well) to step in and stop you.

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Date: 8/6/11 22:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
Ultimately I in the case of male circumcision far too much is made of it by both sides. There are no legitimate reasons for it and we probably shouldn't be doing it to babies but in 99% of cases it is not like any real or measurable harm will come if we do so.

That's how I feel pretty exactly.

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Date: 8/6/11 22:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
All of this.

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Date: 9/6/11 03:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
Do people ever justify FGM via male circumcision?

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Date: 8/6/11 22:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mrbogey.livejournal.com
I figured it was a given that the comic and his backers were anti-semites so I didn't feel the need to pile on.

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Date: 10/6/11 00:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
This.

He's obv a douche but there wasn't really much else to say other than a simple agreement. What was it that anyone wanted to discuss about it?

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Date: 9/6/11 00:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paedraggaidin.livejournal.com
I'm with [livejournal.com profile] mrbogey: it was just so damn blatant. Unfortunately, many people get so wrapped up in outrage over the "mutilation" or "child abuse" rhetoric that they, consciously or not, overlook the vicious anti-Semitism at the campaign's heart in the name of "the children."

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Date: 9/6/11 00:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yahvah.livejournal.com
Frankly, most of the arguments against male circumcision are utter nonsense. I'm certain I sufficiently put the reasonable smack down here (http://thequestionclub.livejournal.com/99642069.html?thread=2758265813#t2758265813).

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Date: 9/6/11 03:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
Candidly, the arguments for it are not so solid. The only one that makes any sense is that apparently one is shunned by a community if they don't. That is an argument for not going against the flow, not an argument for the value of male circumcision.

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Date: 9/6/11 02:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
The comic was anti-semitic and thereby sucks. I'm not surprised it existed though, just ashamed for our species.

I'm opposed to banning male circumcision - but its very illogical thing to do. I fail to see any logical reason to cut a child's genitals.


To not do so would mean they could not fully participate in Jewish life within any of the mainstream branches of the religion.

Pardon my irreverence, but candidly, that is a most bizarre standard. I understand wanting to fit in though. Wanting to be a member of the tribe. I wonder what bizarre standards I have due to peer pressure that I am currently blind towards?


where do people feel they are rightly able to draw the line on cultural and religious tolerance?

I tend to be candid. This often leads me to the "intolerant" side, especially regarding religious issues. (You've experienced this side of me, yourself. Our exchange gave me some pause too.) So, I'm not a good measure.

I wouldn't go out of my way to discourage my neighbor, who goes to the ocean in the sunrise to recharge her crystals, but I would tell her what I thought if asked.

You've posed a really great question, and I haven't found an answer and I've oscillated more than many on the issue.

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Date: 10/6/11 00:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] raichu100.livejournal.com
a bit (er, a lot) OT but...curious: "recharge her crystals"?

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Date: 9/6/11 07:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nevermind6794.livejournal.com
Ducking the issue a bit to focus on the broader question of cultural/religious prerogatives vs. principles:

I got Sam Harris's The Moral Landscape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Moral_Landscape) on a whim from the library a couple of weeks ago. Haven't read any of it - in fact, I skimmed the wiki entry just before typing this comment. But the jacket had an interesting point: there is no Christian physics or Muslim physics, so why would there be Christian morality or Muslim morality? There is simply morality.

The obvious difference is that physics is a series of immutable laws of nature that can be empirically determined - and his book apparently aims to show that science can provide a foundation for morality. But I think the point is still a fair one; why should our judgment of the morality of an action change because it has religious or cultural affiliations? My thinking is that it shouldn't.

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Date: 9/6/11 08:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anosognosia.livejournal.com
I don't think the argument here is that moral standards vary by culture, but rather that there's a universal moral standard about respecting cultures. It's not that Jewish practice be tolerated because Jews live in a completely independent moral world, but rather because we all live in a moral world where Jewish practice be tolerated.

Incidentally, there is certainly a "Christian physics" if this term is meant to indicate a physics indebted to the particular contributions of Christian history.

There is also certainly a "Christian morality" in (at least) the same sense.

Because we Americans and Europeans live in a culture which is inherently indebted to its Christian history, we tend not to reflect on this fact and rather like to imagine that the results of Christian history are just plain norms for the human species. This is an error, and a useful part of these kinds of debates is the occasion they provide for reflecting on our own attitudes as something other than inherent standards.

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