They just don't get it...

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

It turns out that a British diplomat turned up at the border and asked to be taken to rebel commanders in Libya. he had with him a detail from the SAS, a crack British Special Forces outfit, similar to the American Delta Force, only with stiffer upper lips and no chewing gum to hand out.

Anyways, the Libyan commanders didn't ask for, and didn't want any forign troops involved in what they see as 'their' struggle against Gaddaffi. So they captured the SAS guys and threw them into the brig, only releasing them unharmed once they had got the british diplomat out of their country.

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/03/05/libyan-rebels-capture-british-sas-unit/

So, there you have it. The Libyans are asking for a UN backed intervention in their struggle.
They want the UN , not the UK or the USA to send in any ground troops.

Seeing as if the rebels win, they are going to have to go to their own people and say that' we are not the sellouts to Western Powers like Gaddaffi was ( remember that the jets and tanks he is currently using to murder his own people were supplied by the same people who want to start an invasion) - well , i think it is only fair that they should be the ones who set the terms on how Gaddaffi is otten rid of. Ok, he has to go, nd his own people are the ones to take him down.

Ii don't see the military dictators and undemocratic despots who rule Arab League countries being very enthusiastic about establishing a bit more democracy in the world , somehow - esp. in a place like Libya.

And that leaves the UN. So, what is the UN for? UK/USA forces have basically been acting like the military wing of their countries corporate interests of late. i don't blame the Libyans for telling the SAS that they were unwelcome.

I do think that the Libyans have every right to appeal to the international community, via the UN , which pledges itself to uphold human rights , to which they belong , to give them a hand by way of enforcing a no fly zone and supporting the Libyan Ground forces with airstrikes on Gaddaffis mercenaries, together with his tanks and artillery.

I am suprised that the UK Government didn't get it that the age of gunboat diplomacy is over, but what else can we expect of ex public schoolboys like 'Call Me Dave'? Cameron and his cronies in the British foriegn office 'just don't get it' - but I hope that someone out there in the wider world does, and does what the rebels are begging the international community to give them without delay.

But if you disagree with the idea of airstrikes, and the Libyans are not going to co operate with any foriegn troops that they regard as 'invaders', then what role or position do we want the UN to adopt here? It has been said in this community that ' this is not what the UN is for - well, ok, what should it be doing instead?

Comments

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

They want the UN , not the UK or the USA to send in any ground troops.

Which is silly, since the UN doesn't have any troops. It's troops from some other country that goes in and does what the UN "recommends".

But if you disagree with the idea of airstrikes, and the Libyans are not going to co operate with any foriegn troops that they regard as 'invaders', then what role or position do we want the UN to adopt here?

We should not be involved. Are we involved in the civil war in any other African country?

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

We should not be involved. Are we involved in the civil war in any other African country?

It's more than that, even. There are democratic revolutions occurring all across that region as we speak. Are we now saying we can/will get involved if those proceed badly? It's a disturbing slippery slope, and anyone who thinks that this will end quickly should remember that Rumsfeld insisted the Iraq war would last 6 weeks only.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

I don't give a damn about it ' ending quickly'.
the democratic struggle for freedom is still going on taday - every generation has fought on the foundation that the previous generation fought to give it.
the Tollpuddle Martyrs fought on the basis laid by Magna Carta, the Chartists and the Trade Unions paved the way for votes for women and the Welfare State.

The britain we know today took centuries to shape. not decades, not generation , but whole centuries. against this sort of timescale, some politicians look at the next term of office.

If we want to see democracy thrive, we must support those who struggle for democratic freedoms, at any cost.

[dwer.livejournal.com]

if the UN is actually going to do this, then I don't have a problem with that. But that means that they can't pick their battles as selectively as they have been.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

i quite agree, and although this may cause economic problems , i can't see it causing any moral difficulties.

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

So it's now our place/job to win other peoples' revolutions for them?

After Libya, where to next?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

whereever the need. you say you believe in freedom ? Then prove it.

End sponsorship and trade deals with places that support apartied and union busting.
Stop trading with places with a poor record onhuman rights and environmental protection.
Put principles before profit.
Join the Uk Green Party if you live in the UK.

i am not suggesting that you will get elected on this platform , but at least you will have done the right thing.

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

So the U.S. should have an open-ended military policy of removing every dictator on Earth?

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

If we're going to do that, couldn't we just assassinate them? Wouldn't it be cheaper*?

*Not saying we should, just thinking that if we actually took this insane proposal seriously...

[dwer.livejournal.com]

that simply leaves the power vacuum at the top of the pyramid, it doesn't change the structure of the regime. Also, it's against US law.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

I know all this. I wasn't speaking seriously. But neither will any of what we're doing likely change Libya for the better either.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

not just the USA- what about the UN ?

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

So that's a yes? The U.S. (vis-a-vis the UN or not) should have an open-ended military policy of removing every dictator on Earth?

Do you realize how bankruptingly insane that is?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

We cannot expect the USA to do it for us, or do it alone.
if westerners want democracy, they need to make sure that everyone else has some.

Key players like Britain and France have big budgets too.

We in Britian tend to talk a lot about 'freedom' - we ought to put our money where our mouth is whenever we do that. I say this as an ordinary Brit myself.

the western nations should form a Pro Democracy League, Like the Arab League or the African Union - not just covering one region but pledging all members to assist and promote democratic self determination among it's members and eliminating despotism for the common good.

ok, so businessmen may not like it, but that is what it boild down to.
maybe it is best to make it an NGO for now, but it ought to be the desire of everyone living in a democracy to see to it that the whole world has the same benifit as you and me.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

"the western nations should form a Pro Democracy League, Like the Arab League or the African Union - not just covering one region but pledging all members to assist and promote democratic self determination among it's members and eliminating despotism for the common good."

1.) Why would problem regimes join such a league in the first place, knowing that they were likely to swiftly be shown the rod?

2.) Assuming they did for the sake of argument, there isn't enough money in all the world. Then there's reconstruction costs, and the fact that the world has never been in a state where strife and subjugation were absent. Even otherwise free and prosperous countries will never be able to raise enough money to you know, advance, because they'll always be too busy putting out someone elses fires and rebuilding.

What you want sounds perversely like the Twilight Zone version of the Justice League. Only I don't even think Bruce Wayne has enough money to fund your operation.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

Free countries can go bankrupt if they try to pursue this consistently. Wars are expensive, and the number of conflicts one can be involved in if pursued with consistency is endless. May even have to fight the same war several times if the new boss isn't any different from the old boss.

You want other countries to emulate you? Stay at home and make sure your country is worth emulating, then let others choose to emulate you or not.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Especially when they have oil, you mean? Why exactly is this sounding like the Britain of 1899 all over again?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

No, oil has nothing to do with it as far as i am concerned.
i grant that Obama and cameron may feel very differently, but my take on it is on my LJ , if you care to click the link.

http://green-man-2010.livejournal.com/tag/libya

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

And in theory the Second Boer War and the Third Gulf War had nothing to do with diamonds and oil.....

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

well, as i said, I have my own views and obama and Cameron may well have veiws that are very different.

Whoever ends up in charge of Libya, i doubt that i personally will see any diamonds or oil coming my way as a result.

I would be overjoyed if the guys mentioned today on the BBC get in , though . Have you seen the news story?

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

You're free to do so. I, on the other hand, remember the USA was sold a pig in a poke by Ahmed Chalabi and went into Iraq in 2003 to unintentionally trigger a struggle for regional hegemony between Israel and Iran, with no Iraq to hold most of the attention of Iran.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

We should not be involved. Are we involved in the civil war in any other African country?

If you want to say that, as an American , you want to stay out, well, that is your choice.

However, as a Brit, I would say that Britain is already involved with Mr. Gaddaffi.

please go here, and click on the link that takes you to ' Lockerbie bombing as well, and you will see what I mean .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yvonne_Fletcher

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Napoleon on the pope UN.

How many divisions has Ban Ki Moon?

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

A rare case where you and I agree.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

We should not be involved. Are we involved in the civil war in any other African country?
but the UN has always sent in people with blue helmets. Remember the Congo?
No, I guess you are not ald enough. but the Libyans are not even asking for UN troops at present, they want airstrikes and a no fly zone. it seems that they have that and time will tell what happens next.