They just don't get it...

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

It turns out that a British diplomat turned up at the border and asked to be taken to rebel commanders in Libya. he had with him a detail from the SAS, a crack British Special Forces outfit, similar to the American Delta Force, only with stiffer upper lips and no chewing gum to hand out.

Anyways, the Libyan commanders didn't ask for, and didn't want any forign troops involved in what they see as 'their' struggle against Gaddaffi. So they captured the SAS guys and threw them into the brig, only releasing them unharmed once they had got the british diplomat out of their country.

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/03/05/libyan-rebels-capture-british-sas-unit/

So, there you have it. The Libyans are asking for a UN backed intervention in their struggle.
They want the UN , not the UK or the USA to send in any ground troops.

Seeing as if the rebels win, they are going to have to go to their own people and say that' we are not the sellouts to Western Powers like Gaddaffi was ( remember that the jets and tanks he is currently using to murder his own people were supplied by the same people who want to start an invasion) - well , i think it is only fair that they should be the ones who set the terms on how Gaddaffi is otten rid of. Ok, he has to go, nd his own people are the ones to take him down.

Ii don't see the military dictators and undemocratic despots who rule Arab League countries being very enthusiastic about establishing a bit more democracy in the world , somehow - esp. in a place like Libya.

And that leaves the UN. So, what is the UN for? UK/USA forces have basically been acting like the military wing of their countries corporate interests of late. i don't blame the Libyans for telling the SAS that they were unwelcome.

I do think that the Libyans have every right to appeal to the international community, via the UN , which pledges itself to uphold human rights , to which they belong , to give them a hand by way of enforcing a no fly zone and supporting the Libyan Ground forces with airstrikes on Gaddaffis mercenaries, together with his tanks and artillery.

I am suprised that the UK Government didn't get it that the age of gunboat diplomacy is over, but what else can we expect of ex public schoolboys like 'Call Me Dave'? Cameron and his cronies in the British foriegn office 'just don't get it' - but I hope that someone out there in the wider world does, and does what the rebels are begging the international community to give them without delay.

But if you disagree with the idea of airstrikes, and the Libyans are not going to co operate with any foriegn troops that they regard as 'invaders', then what role or position do we want the UN to adopt here? It has been said in this community that ' this is not what the UN is for - well, ok, what should it be doing instead?

Comments

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

So that's a yes? The U.S. (vis-a-vis the UN or not) should have an open-ended military policy of removing every dictator on Earth?

Do you realize how bankruptingly insane that is?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

We cannot expect the USA to do it for us, or do it alone.
if westerners want democracy, they need to make sure that everyone else has some.

Key players like Britain and France have big budgets too.

We in Britian tend to talk a lot about 'freedom' - we ought to put our money where our mouth is whenever we do that. I say this as an ordinary Brit myself.

the western nations should form a Pro Democracy League, Like the Arab League or the African Union - not just covering one region but pledging all members to assist and promote democratic self determination among it's members and eliminating despotism for the common good.

ok, so businessmen may not like it, but that is what it boild down to.
maybe it is best to make it an NGO for now, but it ought to be the desire of everyone living in a democracy to see to it that the whole world has the same benifit as you and me.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

"the western nations should form a Pro Democracy League, Like the Arab League or the African Union - not just covering one region but pledging all members to assist and promote democratic self determination among it's members and eliminating despotism for the common good."

1.) Why would problem regimes join such a league in the first place, knowing that they were likely to swiftly be shown the rod?

2.) Assuming they did for the sake of argument, there isn't enough money in all the world. Then there's reconstruction costs, and the fact that the world has never been in a state where strife and subjugation were absent. Even otherwise free and prosperous countries will never be able to raise enough money to you know, advance, because they'll always be too busy putting out someone elses fires and rebuilding.

What you want sounds perversely like the Twilight Zone version of the Justice League. Only I don't even think Bruce Wayne has enough money to fund your operation.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Why would problem regimes join such a league in the first place,
oh , they wouldn't. They would have to be 'assimilated'.

the idea is that you gt the well run places to band together for mutual support. Anyone who traded with a rogue state would get kicked out.
But rogue states would be fair game if anyone inside them wanted assistance in getting rid of a despot.

It would be a cross between NATO and the EU. A group with mutual trading ties and a common defence policy.Being in would be a bonus , but breaching the terms of membership got you kicked out. as the group grew in size and influence, there would be fewer fires to put out.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

Overly simplistic and assumptive. Human nature is stubbornly persistent and resistant to such huberistic attempts to squash it.

Rather than worrying about righting all wrongs worldwide, we'd be better off each concerning ourselves with mitigating the malignancies amongst ourselves as willing examples for others to follow voluntarily.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Well, that is a fair start, but we have already agreed to -

freeze Libyan assets

prevent arms reaching Gaddaffi

enforce a no fly zone and not allow Libyan airlines to take off or land on member states

protect civilians in Libya from attack by gaddaffis military forces

dissallow occupation by any foriegn troops.

I mean , this ais a pretty good start, and much better than hoping that Gaddiaffi will change his tune if we are nice.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

Please. Things always seem to go well at the start. Shitstorms don't start out as shitstorms, it takes time to see just how big a FUBAR it was to get involved in the first place, but just far enough to see it's 'too late to pull out' because of the heavy investment put into a favorable outcome that is less and less likely to occur.

By your estimation, all of our interventions in the last 40 years had favorable outcomes for the US because they all started out well in the first week.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Ok , looking at it in the context of the thread overall, you are saying that we can only lead by example.

We put out legislation on a national level against burglars and we expect the cops to keep order on the streets.

Ok, framing a law does not stop crime , but if the populus is behind the law, the law acts as a brake on crime.

And, the international community has agreed that certain things out to be done, and are willing to enforce hier decision , for the present. let's not be quick to condemn the International community. it iisn't over till its over.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

"We put out legislation on a national level against burglars and we expect the cops to keep order on the streets."

There are natural limits to what can be done by law even against murder and theft. I can imagine a law that confines all private citizens to a lifetime of solitary confinement would drastically reduce murder and theft. It's the model society!

That's an extreme example, obviously, but it's an illustrative device to show that one cannot divorce consequences from apparently noble motivations, as you often seem wont to do. We have enough historical reference and understanding to know that what is being attempted in Libya is hubris.