Shawna Forde gets death penalty

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/22/arizona.double.killing/?hpt=T2

I don't advocate the death penalty but I shed no tears for this woman. Here's the crux of the story: an anti-immigrant militant attacked a Latino family, killing the father and 9-year-old daughter (as she begged for her life), and shooting the mother who only survived because she pretended to die from the gunshot.

The murderers thought the father was a drug dealer and they wanted his money to finance their budding hate group. I guess that would have been a nifty recruiting tool for extremists, their willingness to kill Mexicans to get things done. Nevermind the fact that the victims were American-born citizens, such details are irrelevant when racial bigotry is concerned.

This is the sort of thing that happens when you fan the flames of hatred, dehumanization is the predecessor to atrocity. I'm surprised this didn't get more attention from the mainstream media, I guess they aren't as liberal as so many seem to think.

Comments

[paedraggaidin.livejournal.com]

While I have no sympathy for monsters like this, executing her won't bring back the dead, or somehow equalize the loss. I will never get the logic of the death penalty. It's 2011...we should be beyond such things.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

The only coherent argument I can think FOR the death penalty is that it saves money compared to life imprisonment, but even that falls down when you take a look at the numbers.

And in any case, in a court of law, we don't let people justify killing people just to save money....

If you can't rehabilitate these people, that just means we are doing something wrong. Try harder. Brainwash the fuckers into being normal, I don't care. Judicial killing will still always be less justifiable.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Like in "Clockwork Orange"?

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

I was being dramatic, but I can't accept that killing people is somehow more acceptable than playing with their heads in a well-intentioned, controlled manner.

*shudders*

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Somehow that is really scary!!!

Re: *shudders*

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

Says the guy who thinks that the risk of accidentally murdering innocent citizens is worth whatever benefits to "justice" the penalty supposedly brings us.

Re: *shudders*

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Whereas killing them is...less scary?

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

For rehabilitation you have to consider sociopaths, people not capable of feelings of remorse or guilt. Some people can't be rehabilitated (although I don't think they should be executed either).

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

What you mean is, we don't know how to, or if we can rehabilitate them.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

Nope, I meant what I said. Whether we can someday find foolproof means of detecting and "curing" sociopathy is pure speculation, I'm talking from a practical standpoint.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Well that is what I am talking about. You admit that we don't know if its possible.

I'm saying that if we are executing people because at present they are not practical to cure, we're not trying hard enough to find out.

[kawaiimamimi.livejournal.com]

Some people can not be rehabilitated, period, barring massive brain surgery that we are not yet capable of. Psychopathy is lack of blood flow to certain parts of the brain that process emotion.

I am friends with a psychopath of the highest degree and there is no way to change someone like that. He literally can not feel emotions, though he tries to understand them. When he writes, though he is a fabulous writer, his characters feel flat because he can not process the emotion behind them. This isn't a case of someone with a complex. A psychopath literally has pieces missing that can not be put back. He, at least, has decided to live his life as normally as he can without indulging in his darker sides very often. But someone who has already murdered...

Have you ever heard of Ed Kemper? Or perhaps Karl Panzram? There are people that are not rehabilitatable and it is naive to think that's simply because we aren't "trying hard enough."

So....

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

What you mean is, (at present) we don't know how to, or if we can rehabilitate them.

I'm sure I just said that.

You know, If you really just want to have an argument with me, that's cool, but you could at least pick a topic on which we actually disagree :)

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

As I said before, we need to try harder trying to figure how to "fix" these people, or at learn if it is impossible even in theory - which we have no evidence to suggest is the case as yet.

Being beyond our present science is not remotely the same as impossible. Executing people in the meantime, simply because we don't know the answer, is immoral and stupid.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

Your friend might take up poker.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Or Republicanism.

[ellistrae.livejournal.com]

I admit, I am curious how you can be "friends" with a psychopath. If they do not feel emotion, would their friendship be a somewhat hollow thing? I love my friends, and I would like to think that the feeling is returned. This would not be the case with your friend, right? I am more intrigued by the idea than I probably should be LOL.

[anosognosia.livejournal.com]

"Psychopathy is lack of blood flow to certain parts of the brain that process emotion."

No, it's not, it's rather a personality disorder characterized by consistent pattern of behaviour since adolescence indicated by three or more of compulsive criminality, deficits in planning, recklessness...

Like any pattern of behaviour, it is correlated with certain physiological states in the nervous system, but that doesn't mean it literally is those states, and it certainly doesn't mean it is impervious to any intervention but psychosurgery.

"I am friends with a psychopath of the highest degree and there is no way to change someone like that."

Why not?

Do you have any clinical experience working with psychopaths or do you work with colleagues who do? Are you familiar with the literature on psychotherapy with psychopathy?

"There are people that are not rehabilitatable and it is naive to think that's simply because we aren't 'trying hard enough.'"

We're not really trying at all.

[mikeyxw.livejournal.com]

I'm against the death penalty because I'd prefer to live in a country that doesn't kill its own citizens. This has nothing to do with saving money or rehabilitating people.

Also, we lock people up to punish them as well as to try to rehabilitate them. There are some acts for which the correct punishment is that we lock them up for the rest of their lives.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

This has nothing to do with saving money or rehabilitating people.

I wouldn't actually disagree, to be honest. At least, not ultimately. It's about stopping people from doing bad things to other people.

As for punishment, ask yourself, what is the actual point of punishment?

[mikeyxw.livejournal.com]

The point of punishment is to provide a deterrent to other would be criminals and also to give the victims a feeling that some kind of justice has been done so they don't feel the need to extract their own vengance.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

You also missed the other, most important point of punishment: to modify the behaviour of the criminal.

The most important reason, in fact. We punish children who misbehave for the same reason; to create an incentive for them to behave correctly in future.

[anosognosia.livejournal.com]

"The only coherent argument I can think FOR the death penalty is that it saves money compared to life imprisonment, but even that falls down when you take a look at the numbers. "

Sounds like an argument for prison reform, not for the death penalty.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, filthy cage for life or the sweet release of death, honestly if we aren't going to let some people out again ever, I think they should have the option.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

It can't be that bad, at least here, I mean the average "stay" on death row is in excess of 20 years, and that's due to the inmate appeals.

caveat: I heard recently, somebody insisted no more appeals be made for him, so apparently some appeals are automatic in death penalty cases.