Cops and Teachers? THEY Don't Pay Taxes!

[paft.livejournal.com]

Wisconsin State Assemblyman Robin Vos lets us all know what he thinks of those taxpaying Wisconsin citizens who work in the public sector:

The reality is they haven’t had to pay for these things, they’re upset about doing it now, and the taxpayers are the ones who definitely understand this because they get it, they’ve been doing this in the private sector for years, it’s time we had the same thing happen in the public sector…The fact that my Democratic colleagues want to go back to the taxpayer and have them pay higher taxes because someone shouldn’t pay 12% towards their healthcare….We are standing with the taxpayers all across Wisconsin. It’s amazing the outpouring of support that we’ve been getting from the people outside the Capitol Square, the people who are in the reality of the world, not the place that we’re sitting.

Howard Dean does a very good job of refuting Kudlow and Vos’ fiction that the demonstrations are all about the cuts in benefits and not about the elimination of collective bargaining. The capper to this exchange, however, comes near the end of the segment, when a sign appears just over Vos’ shoulder on the right. Not the kind of thing Kudlow could choreograph.

It beautifully highlights the idiocy of Vos' fiction that the demonstrators are, in some fundamental way, less American than other Americans. Does he really think cops and teachers don't pay taxes, or “live in the reality of the world?”

Crossposted from Thoughtcrimes
*

Comments

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

Limit unions in that manner and yes, they are irrelevant.

this is just illogical. wages are relevant, as are private sector unions.

And so have many other Americans, especially those who work in the service industry.

good thing this has nothing to do with private sector unions. are you really this concerned about the working conditions for public school teachers when this bill passes?

[paft.livejournal.com]

Yes. This is a test case. If Wisconsin succeeds in eliminating collective bargaining, other states will follow suit, and as someone who includes public school teachers among my family and friends, I am concerned about their working conditions.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

as if the teachers union rights to negotiate pension and health care benefits is the only thing between teachers and the sweatshop.

[paft.livejournal.com]

Unions are a significant shield between ALL workers and the sweatshop.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

yeah, im sure thats what they tell you to get your union dues.

[paft.livejournal.com]

It's what history has taught us.

And I'm not in a union.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

unions had their day. now they just create boogeyman to justify their dues. the game is up.

[paft.livejournal.com]

And during the union's "day," worker conditions improved dramatically.

What's to prevent them from deteriorating if unions vanish?

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

state laws

[paft.livejournal.com]

And you figure those state laws are always enforced for non union employees?

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

if someone is breaking the law, we have legal remedies, yes.

[paft.livejournal.com]

And they're always enforced? Big business political contributors have never managed to defund and render toothless such enforcement mechanisms?

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

And they're always enforced?

is the world perfect?

Big business political contributors have never managed to defund and render toothless such enforcement mechanisms?

and unions are never corrupt?

keep playing the fear card paft. its quite revealing of the bankruptcy of your arguments. they are based entirely on trying to scare people.

[paft.livejournal.com]

The card I'm playing is the "reality" card. Unions, imperfect as they may be, are the only way that workers have a shot at wielding the same level of clout as their more well-heeled employers.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

no, its the fear card. and the demonstrations in wisconsin are perfect evidence of this. scott walker is being compared to hitler, because he wants to teachers to contribute to their retirement and health care costs, while limiting collective bargaining to their salary. all the while you are suggesting its somehow going to lead to a 10 hour workday and slave driver principals. its fear card 101.

[paft.livejournal.com]

He's all but eliminating collective bargaining. That's what's prompted the protests.

You really come across here as practically a baa-lamb when it comes to the good will of employers. No, state laws do not replace unions, as anyone who has followed the fortunes of workers in non-unionized regions will tell you. South Carolina's laws against collusion, for instance, did not prevent the Chamber of Commerce from violating that law routinely and openly as a way of luring companies into the area. Nor do laws promoting worker safety get enforced when the only strong political forces in an area are businesses with an interest in seeing those laws flouted.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

He's all but eliminating collective bargaining

he is limiting collective bargaining to salaries, giving teachers a choice about paying union dues, and having a vote every year to certify the union. and for that he is being compared to hitler, and you are suggesting the return to a 10 hour workday, and a bunch of slave driving principals. that is nothing but fearmongering.

[paft.livejournal.com]

The man is hostile to unions and doing his best to destroy them.

Anyone who imagines a 10-hour workday is unthinkable today is beyond naive.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

The man is hostile to unions and doing his best to destroy them.

sure, because the legislation in wisconsin is definitely going to destroy unions. fearmongering is about all you have isn't it?

Anyone who imagines a 10-hour workday is unthinkable today is beyond naive

anyone who thinks this bill in wisconsin is going to lead to a 10 hour workday is delusional.

[paft.livejournal.com]

Teachers already have on average 10 hour workdays, a good part of it uncompensated. In addition to time spent on class and administrative work, they must grade papers, draw up lesson plans, and communicate with parents. Your histrionics about the unlikelihood of a 10 hour workday is downright comic. THEY ALREADY HAVE IT.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

Teachers already have on average 10 hour workdays, a good part of it uncompensated.

teachers also get a two and half month summer break, a two week christmas break, a week long spring break, all government holidays, and in service days. they are also paid a yearly salary.

they must grade papers, draw up lesson plans, and communicate with parents.

OMG the horrors of having a job! lets not pretend that teachers have it rough paft.

THEY ALREADY HAVE IT.

by that standard, most jobs already have it. and students! OMG, we need a student union to protect us against those evil teachers!!

[paft.livejournal.com]

Paft: they must grade papers, draw up lesson plans, and communicate with parents.
waf: OMG the horrors of having a job! lets not pretend that teachers have it rough paft.

Whenever you're confronted by a fact contrary to what you've claimed, you resort to histrionics.

Waf: by that standard, most jobs already have it. and students! OMG, we need a student union to protect us against those evil teachers!!

Uh, no. I've taught and I've done other jobs over the past 25 years, and those other jobs did not demand the same level of take-home work that teachers face. Yeah, students get homework. Teachers have to grade as many as 30 homework papers a night, AND they draw up the lesson plans and deal not just with the parents of all or many of their students. And by the way, many of those teachers don't spend those summers relaxing. They go to conferences, attend classes, and otherwise gear up for the school year.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

Whenever you're confronted by a fact contrary to what you've claimed, you resort to histrionics.

no, im just demonstrating that your little sob stories about teachers having to do their job are pathetic.

Teachers have to grade as many as 30 homework papers a night

OMG paft?! they have to grade 30 papers! oh the horrors! what do you think most business people do when they get home from work?

AND they draw up the lesson plans and deal not just with the parents of all or many of their students

i know paft, teachers just have it so rough. they actually have to teach. can you believe it?

They go to conferences, attend classes, and otherwise gear up for the school year.

you're talking to someone who grew up with a teacher as a mother, has a sister who teaches, and has a whole slew of family friends who teach. i see the reality of teaching first hand. your little sob stories are pathetic attempts at making the teaching profession seem like an overly burdensome profession. its just not the reality of the situation.

[paft.livejournal.com]

waf: Whenever you're confronted by a fact contrary to what you've claimed, you resort to histrionics.
waf: no, im just demonstrating that your little sob stories about teachers having to do their job are pathetic.

It's about how difficult and demanding the job is, WAF.

waf: OMG paft?! they have to grade 30 papers! oh the horrors! what do you think most business people do when they get home from work?

Sometimes they relax and have dinner. Sometimes they do a bit of extra work on the side. Most who are paid at the rate teachers are paid do not spend several hours poring over take home work. And yes, grading 30 papers a night is extraordinarily difficult and time consuming, especially when those papers involve essays and complex answers that have to be assessed.

waf: you're talking to someone who grew up with a teacher as a mother, has a sister who teaches, and has a whole slew of family friends who teach. i see the reality of teaching first hand.

And yet you were unaware that teachers average 50 work hours a week? Weird.

[whoasksfinds.livejournal.com]

It's about how difficult and demanding the job is

and your exaggerating the difficulties of the job for emotional effect. i mean honestly, how many careers can say they get two and half months off in the summer, 2 weeks off in the winter, and a week off in the spring? all of it paid.

And yet you were unaware that teachers average 50 work hours a week?

i was unaware the teachers were not quite fairly compensated for the jobs that they do. and if you really think that all teachers average 50 hours a week, you're out of touch with reality.