Right-wing blogs attack Lara Logan after tragic incident

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Right now, I'm truly disgusted and ashamed of people within my own party who are either blaming Lara Logan for the brutal rape and assault that she endured or chalking it up to karma.

Two blogs - The Gateway Pundit and DebbieSchlussel.com - have both taken different but equally awful approaches to discussing what happened to Lara Logan.

First, a portion of the entry from Jim Hoft at The Gateway Pundit:

Lara Logan is lucky she’s alive.
Her liberal belief system almost got her killed on Friday. This talented reporter will never be the same.

Why did this attractive blonde female reporter wander into Tahrir Square last Friday? Why would she think this was a good idea? Did she not see the violence in the square the last three weeks? Did she not see the rock throwing? Did she miss the camels? Did her colleagues tell her about the Western journalists who were viciously assaulted on the Square? Did she forget about the taunts from the Egyptian thugs the day before? What was she thinking? Was it her political correctness that about got her killed? Did she think things would be different for her?

[Source]

Next, the entry from Debbie Schlussel:

As I’ve noted before, it bothers me not a lick when mainstream media reporters who keep telling us Muslims and Islam are peaceful get a taste of just how “peaceful” Muslims and Islam really are. In fact, it kinda warms my heart. Still, it’s also a great reminder of just how “civilized” these “people” (or, as I like to call them in Arabic, “Bahai’im” [Animals]) are...

[Source]

Schlussel also posted an update after receiving reaction on the entry:

The reaction of the left to this article is funny in its predictability. Sooo damn predictable. Of course I don’t support “sexual assault” or violence against Lara Logan, and I said that nowhere here. RIF–Reading Is Fundamental. Your premature articulation is a problem. I did say that it warms my heart when reporters who openly deny that Islam is violent and constantly promote it get the same kinds of threats of violence I get every day from Muslims. Because now they know how it feels. They aren’t so dismissive of the threats when those threats are directed at them, instead of at us little people. And yet they still won’t admit that THIS. IS. ISLAM. Lara Logan was among the chief cheerleaders of this “revolution” by animals. Now she knows what Islamic revolution is really all about.

Hoft chose a more "misogyny-on-parade" approach, focusing on her looks and asking condescending hypothetical questions about why she was there, as if her presence gave anyone the right to touch her in the first place. Schlussel, on the other hand, seems to imply that Logan's abuse was deserved based on an allegedly naive attitude about what the people were like and how they'd treat her.

It seems people have taken a casual attitude about rape in the past few years, and that's really bothersome. No wonder rapes go unreported in the world, when you have morons like these playing the victim-blame game.

EDIT: Seems it gets worse when you read the rest of Schlussel's entry:

So sad, too bad, Lara. No one told her to go there. She knew the risks. And she should have known what Islam is all about. Now she knows. Or so we'd hope. But in the case of the media vis-a-vis Islam, that's a hope that's generally unanswered.

This never happened to her or any other mainstream media reporter when Mubarak was allowed to treat his country of savages in the only way they can be controlled.

Now that's all gone. How fitting that Lara Logan was "liberated" by Muslims in Liberation Square while she was gushing over the other part of the "liberation."

Hope you're enjoying the revolution, Lara! Alhamdilllullah [praise allah].

[Source]

I want so badly to punch Debbie Schlussel in the face over and over and over again...

Comments

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

Well, your comment wasn't that rape happens everywhere, it was that the guy didn't mention the rapes in "a Christian society". If you meant to say "rape happens everywhere" perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.

And yeah, I'd say women are safer walking daytime streets in the US than they are in Egypt. Also, I don't think you'll find it standard for families in the US to blame the girl for being raped.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think it is rather "quaint" that the woman writing the shitty blog links rape to Muslims specifically, hence my remark about Christianity and her lack of insight on that. My remark was directly linked to what was written in that blog. No one else seems to have an issue with understanding that.

Now I *get* that you think it is far better in the US than in Egypt, but this is neither here nor there, unless you mean to imply that female foreign correspondents somehow have themselves to blame, since they go into dangerous situations. (I assume people with this kind of twisted logic would think that the male correspondents who fare ill, also deserve what came to them)

You imply that there is something in the Muslim society which makes it worse than a Christian society. In which case I will tell you that this is immensely hard to measure without bias. When you put into consideration that the US is a comparatively wealthy democracy with such rich possibilities and laws of protection in place, and yet still has so much crime, I wouldn't be so damn sure of one country's enormous superiority in humanity over the other. But again, this is not the point.

The point is, that gigantic stones of blame are cast in that blog, on Muslims, while the blamelessness in their own society is nonexistent.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

You imply that there is something in the Muslim society which makes it worse than a Christian society.

No, I imply that Egyptian society (and many other Muslim societies - Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, ...) is worse than US society when it comes to treatment of women.

In Saudi Arabia, for example, women are not allowed to drive, adult males of any age can marry 8 year olds and have sex with them once they reach puberty. In Afghanistan (before we invaded) women were beaten in the streets simply because their ankle became momentarily visible. So yeah, gigantic stones.

And since female reporters being gang raped/molested in the US is unheard of, I see no reason why a blogger criticizing that in Egypt should have to mention that rape happens in the US as well, since the bloggers were specifically talking about gang rape in the streets in broad daylight in a country where woman are routinely gang molested in the streets.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

oh, so it's female reporters you care about specifically, since they aren't gang raped in violent crowds in the US. Maybe you agree with Schlussel that certain violent things are innate to Muslims and that they are animals too?

See, this is what Schlussel says in her "column": women like me (since I agree with Logan, roughly speaking) deserve to get raped by violent men in a mob, in fact it "warms her heart" because we "defend Islam". See in her world, and it sounds like you agree with her, not thinking that all Muslims are violent animals and rapists, and that whole countries of people are as they are merely because they belong to a lesser form of humanity or a lesser culture or what have you. That conditions are not triggered because of immensely more complex factors, factors which all humanity are vulnerable to; because some people (liberals in Schlussel's world) deny such simplistic ways of thinking, because we think like this, we deserve bad bad shit, so we "wake up and learn" that Schlesser and her ilk are right.

And this is where you are wrong, as someone who has at least been to Egypt, Tunisia and a bunch of other places, I'll tell you that while yes, these countries and many more are hard for women, they are not democratic, some places are dictatorships, some are rather lawless, most of them are comparatively poor, while this is true, there are two factors that seem to be omitted in this kind of simplistic analysis. You see, conditions are BAD in these countries for men as well. They get beaten, killed and raped as well, or are at risk of becoming so and pretty openly at that. The other factors is that this is not innate to *Muslim* societies only, it is innate to unstable and poor countries. I could give you a list of places where rape, molestations, beatings and torture have been commonplace, why, some south American ones have even been catholic.

And while I defend the fact that it is about humanity and what goes wrong with it in various circumstances, I can still say that no, I'm not fond of certain cultures and how they treat women, men, children, livestock and whathaveyou (and trust me, streaks in the Muslim culture would be far far from the only religious culture which would be disliked by me), but it doesn't diminish any of my other arguments which you have evaded, satisfied with your simplistic point of: It is BAD there, they are BAD, it is BETTER here, we are BETTER.

So spare me the "lessons" on how it is in "these countries", since I bet you've never been to one, or done anything for oppressed women there. I'm a member in the help fund for Kurdish women, I know the shit that's going on, and yet I still hold my stance on this matter, just like I suspect Lara Logan will, in spite of what happened to her. She seems like a brave and smart person, and I doubt she wants to stand for one kind of hate and aggression, because she was badly injured by another kind of hate and aggression.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

You really have a superiority problem. You're also quite good at twisting peoples words and filling in blanks, though that helps with the superiority part.

p.s. You don't need to go to Saudi Arabia to know that it's legal for adult males to marry 8 year olds, they in fact made it official law somewhat recently. It's also quite well known what the Taliban did in Afghanistan. They aren't lessons, though I can see why you don't want them brought up.

But you want to pretend this is the way all poor countries operate? Name another where women can't drive and men can marry 8 year olds. Or where women get beaten in the street b/c their ankle was showing.


Maybe you agree with Schlussel that certain violent things are innate to Muslims and that they are animals too?

No.

and it sounds like you agree with her

That's because you want it to.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Fine, have any opinion you want about me, but I said it sounds like you're agreeing with Schlussel, not that you are. If you're not, than fine, it would probably mean that you don't think matters are bad because of something specifically innate in Muslims, or otherwise, why being so avoiding in your answers?

Why do you think conditions are as they are in these countries? (particularly if you have any other answers than poverty, lack of education and lack of democratic experience, which are reasons I've stated many times in this exchange)

But you want to pretend this is the way all poor countries operate? Name another where women can't drive and men can marry 8 year olds. Or where women get beaten in the street b/c their ankle was showing.

Why do I have to pretend shit because I simply don't agree with you? Poverty, lack of education and democracy makes for a brutal outcome when hit with religion, it's an old truth. It's rather simplistic of you however to try to make me come up with exactly the same examples from country to country. I'll humor you with examples on the matter however.

In some Southern African countries women are legally minors and can't own or inherit land and other property. They also rely heavily on unpayed work by women in certain fields. Women get circumcised and I'm sure I don't have to tell you that child marriage is not performed in only on part of the world.
In Colombia it's been reported by Amnesty International, that women get raped, beaten and killed by armed forces from all political factions there, female human rights activists report that rapes and abuse happened while police was watching even.
WHO's study about women in Brazil showed that 41% had suffered physical and sexual violence.
In North Korea women aren't allowed to wear pants or ride bicycles, in South Korea property rights were instigated only in 2005 (old Confucian law is very negative toward women) and equally recently laws against domestic violence were instigated.
I could go on, and I do have links galore for you, if you're interested in being bombed.

I'm not sure why you seem to want to "prove" that certain places are harder for women, since I haven't even disagreed on that (emphasized for the umptieth time), just on the reasons.

You really have a superiority problem

whatever, knowing and understanding shit often gets this reaction. I'm probably "uppity" for a reason.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

Why do I have to pretend shit because I simply don't agree with you?

Because you're engaged in trying to win an argument. And I don't think you can really say you don't agree with me, what you're doing is disagreeing with all these things you say I think, said, probably think, seem to think, or sound like I'm saying.


it would probably mean that you don't think matters are bad because of something specifically innate in Muslims, or otherwise, why being so avoiding in your answers?

I made it clear enough. Again:

You imply that there is something in the Muslim society which makes it worse than a Christian society.

No, I imply that Egyptian society (and many other Muslim societies - Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, ...) is worse than US society when it comes to treatment of women.



Why do you think conditions are as they are in these countries?

That seems quite irrelevant. See, my comment was about why there was no need for the blogger to mention rapes in Christian societies, not that bad things only happen to women in Muslim societies.


I'll humor you with examples on the matter however.

Your list of examples is quite short on things that are officially sanctioned (like the things on my list where). What other countries legally allow adults to marry 8 year olds? Which countries allow men to disfigure their wives faces b/c they suspected them of cheating? Which countries allow police (militias, whatever) to beat women in the streets b/c of their dress? The fact that among poor countries, the list is disproportionate/completely muslim would seem to indicate a lack of coincidence.

nice try to avoid answering my question yet again

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I have not, in any answer disagreed that things are harder for women in certain countries. Legal failures are bad in certain mid eastern and African countries (not necessarily Muslim ones).

Your list of examples is quite short on things that are officially sanctioned

Fine, here is the full list (http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/cedaw/reports.htm) of discrimination against women from CEDAW, there are many countries in there, and an abundance of them, several not Muslim countries have legal discrimination against women.

Because you're engaged in trying to win an argument. And I don't think you can really say you don't agree with me, what you're doing is disagreeing with all these things you say I think, said, probably think, seem to think, or sound like I'm saying.

I have agreed with you on the fact that certain places are harder for women, actually from my very first response to you. What you neglect to understand is that I was responding to certain things written in the blog, and it seems you interpret the blog blatantly different from me. I will address that soon.

now, why don't you ANSWER the question stated to you many times: Why do you think women are treated badly in Muslim countries? This actually addresses directly the reason for my comment's phrasing on the blog post in the first place.

Could you please answer the question? I have stated it is because of poverty, ignorance and lack of civil and democratic rights. What do you have to add, or do you agree with me?

Now to the facts:

Fact: Schlussel's blog post, which is sourced up there, states that rape takes place because that IS Islam and the revolution is lead "by animals".

Fact: By the same logic, I added, in my answer to this post, that when rape taken place in Christian countries, by Christians, it should therefore BE Christianity, and thus Christians be animals.

You took offense with this, stating that those places are much worse. I agreed with you, but stated, NOT because they are animals or because THAT IS ISLAM (as the blog poster wrote in those exact words), but because of failed humanity due to poverty, ignorance and lack of liberties.

You avoided to answer why YOU thought the reasons were, and yet claiming you did not agree with the blog poster.

Now my comment was intimately connected to the statements of innate evilness of ISLAM and the revolution being led by animals, in that blog post. Since you are defending the blog post's stance, what do YOU think are the reasons?

You've avoided questions over and over.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

Since you are defending the blog post's stance

No, I am not. Most of my replies have been relatively short. They included:

You imply that there is something in the Muslim society which makes it worse than a Christian society.

No, I imply that Egyptian society (and many other Muslim societies - Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, ...) is worse than US society when it comes to treatment of women.

Maybe you agree with Schlussel that certain violent things are innate to Muslims and that they are animals too?

No.

and it sounds like you agree with her

That's because you want it to.


(Hint: that implies that I don't agree with her.)

it would probably mean that you don't think matters are bad because of something specifically innate in Muslims, or otherwise, why being so avoiding in your answers?

I made it clear enough. Again:

You imply that there is something in the Muslim society which makes it worse than a Christian society.

No, I imply that Egyptian society (and many other Muslim societies - Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, ...) is worse than US society when it comes to treatment of women.

When I have to copy/paste my reply twice, I can't help thinking the person I'm replying to just isn't listening.



Fact: By the same logic, I added, in my answer to this post, that when rape taken place in Christian countries, by Christians, it should therefore BE Christianity, and thus Christians be animals.

That is faulty logic. Not eating pork is certainly a muslim thing, but when a Christian doesn't eat pork that doesn't make it a Christian thing. (Note that it would also be bad logic to conclude that since I'm saying it's bad logic, I therefore agree with Stussel that rape is part of Islam. It would also be quite faulty to say I was comparing eating pork with rape. I used the example since it was the only thing that came to mind that is innately Muslim and something that some non-muslims do.)


You've avoided answering questions over and over, and you seem to think I must answer this question b/c I'm defending the blog's stance. ZBut I'm not, so I won't. I don't have any definitive theory as to why women are treated significantly worse in a fair number of muslim countries, other than:

Taliban: hardcore batshit control freaks.
Saudi religious police: close
In general: It's been said many times Mohamed had a nine year old wife. I don't know if that's true but if so that would explain the child marriages.
I believe he also had a number of wives, which would explain the polygamy (involving just 1 male of course)

This isn't meant to be any sort of definitive theory, just possible explanations.

I have stated it is because of poverty, ignorance and lack of civil and democratic rights. What do you have to add, or do you agree with me?

I would agree those are all probable causes. In the case of Saudi Arabia and the Taliban I would say an extreme version of Islam is also much to blame. I've theorized in other threads here that if they had (actual) freedom of speech and democracy, a lot of this crap would go away, eventually.

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

so I won't.

Liar.

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

???
You know, it would probably help your argumentative cause if you learned to cut and paste better. As it is now, it just looks like you want to call me a liar without me being able to answer, since your accusation is taken out of context and impossible to understand. Perhaps you enjoy being obscure, it's rather common when argument is thin.

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

I was replying to myself, and quoted myself.

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Yeah, well, if you're berating yourself for answering questions, you're berating yourself for being intelligent, but each to their own I guess.

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

What question have I failed to answer: that those countries are worse? I've answered those many times, from the very beginning, over and over.

If specific laws apply in the exact same manner in other countries? I've said it's ridiculous to apply that, but I posted a whole list of other countries that have legislated discrimination against women, many non muslim.

What else have I failed to answer you? I seems you are the one desperate to "win" a debate because you fucked up and didn't understand one and fundamental thing in my phrase that bugged you:

Again: Blogger: MUSLIMS are ANIMALS because they rape, that is what ISLAM is.

Me: (with great irony) Christians too! (note what you DIDN'T GET: I DO NOT, DO NOT think Muslims are animals, and hence by the same logic DO NOT think Christians are animals. It was a direct appliance to the blogger's flawed logic, which you, by your own definition do not agree with.

Can it be any clearer than this?

That is faulty logic. Not eating pork is certainly a muslim thing, but when a Christian doesn't eat pork that doesn't make it a Christian thing. (Note that it would also be bad logic to conclude that since I'm saying it's bad logic, I therefore agree with Stussel that rape is part of Islam. It would also be quite faulty to say I was comparing eating pork with rape. I used the example since it was the only thing that came to mind that is innately Muslim and something that some non-muslims do.)

Well hallelujah and thank you, without meaning to, you actually finally GOT my irony. I don't think rape is innate to either Christians or Muslims, as a direct answer to a direct quote by the blogger, that it is (to Muslims). I was using her own flawed logic. Congratulations for "getting it" inadvertently. Or did it escape you that I think the blogger is WRONG in their logic?

I would agree those are all probable causes. In the case of Saudi Arabia and the Taliban I would say an extreme version of Islam is also much to blame. I've theorized in other threads here that if they had (actual) freedom of speech and democracy, a lot of this crap would go away, eventually.

Sure. Thank you, that's what I wanted to hear.

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

note what you DIDN'T GET: I DO NOT, DO NOT think Muslims are animals, and hence by the same logic DO NOT think Christians are animals.

I never thought that you did. You've continually accused me in this thread of thinking things I don't think, and it's getting really old.

Again: Blogger: MUSLIMS are ANIMALS because they rape, that is what ISLAM is.

I think it's Blogger: Muslims are animals, so they rape.
But with your interpretation, you're mocking her flawed logic, as opposed to using your own flawed logic as my pork example was illustrating.



...understand one and fundamental thing in my phrase that bugged you:

Again: Blogger: MUSLIMS are ANIMALS because they rape, that is what ISLAM is.

Sorry, but that is complete revisionism, which doesn't work when everything is written down.

What you actually said: Also, how quaint that these blogs never mention all the rapes that take place in a Christian society. I guess maybe they weren't "real" rapes?

So yeah, I fucked up because I didn't see from that that you were actually saying "Blogger: MUSLIMS are ANIMALS because they rape, that is what ISLAM is.

The blogger certainly didn't say that, and you'll note the blogger did say :

"...who openly deny that Islam is violent and constantly promote it get the same kinds of threats of violence I get every day from Muslims. Because now they know how it feels. They aren’t so dismissive of the threats when those threats are directed at them, instead of at us little people. And yet they still won’t admit that THIS. IS. ISLAM."

She's talking about (threats of) violence, not rape specifically. It's blogger: "they rape b/c they're animals", not "they're animals b/c they rape".

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I never thought that you did. You've continually accused me in this thread of thinking things I don't think, and it's getting really old.

Actually, these were not accusations, they were exclamatory explanations, due to the abundant misunderstandings to what I've written before. Just putting a little extra security behind what I write.

And really? you are defending your argument by exchanging rape with violence and splitting hairs?

Well okay then: blogger says THIS IS ISLAM (meaning violence), Look what happens when you experience it for yourself! (you get raped), "now she (Lara Logan) knows what Islamic revolution is all about (rape), after being the chief cheerleader (meaning Logan) for this revolution by "animals" (meaning muslims).

You can exchange rape for violence if you wish, it doesn't change my point.

She's talking about (threats of) violence, not rape specifically. It's blogger: "they rape b/c they're animals", not "they're animals b/c they rape".

Well, your interpretation makes her points even more flawed, and my points even clearer. I don't disagree, you just want to shift the focus from rape, which, whether it is true in this text interpretation or not, I don't argue with. My point still stands when it comes to the blogger's flawed logic, and my ironic example is applicable, in a slightly more positive interpretation of her meaning than yours. Possibly you'll want to have it that since she is a complete screaming racist, meaning that Muslims are animals regardless of the violence/rape factor (i.e. they rape/threaten/use violence because they're animals, not the other way around), my ironic counter example is useless. In which case, ironically comparing to other societies having violence, threats and rape is useless because the blogger is a screaming racist to the point that she states that Muslims are complete innate animals and they just beat, rape and kill because of this trait, while in other societies, violence is only made by exceptions among a society of humans.

In any case, your hair-splitting analysis only makes the contents of that blog post dance on a scale between really bad and fucking awful, where my original interpretation was on the better part of "really bad".

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

And really? you are defending your argument by exchanging rape with violence and splitting hairs?

No, your (most recent) argument rested on the assumption that the blogger was saying muslims were animals b/c they rape. You said but hey, christians rape so they must be animals too, and that was your (revised) justification for your original comment.

But the blogger didn't say that, nor did you quote them as such. The statement "muslims rape, so they are animals" does imply that christians who rape are animals, but the blogger, if anything, said "muslims are animals, so they rape". That does not in any way imply that Christians are animals when they rape. That's not hairsplitting. It's basic logic.

Re: You've avoided questions over and over.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

Congratulations for repeating exactly what I stated above. With the one exception that I said that's your interpretation of what the blogger said. I don't personally care two tosses, if she is a screaming complete racist, and by thus making my somewhat (in this context) optimistic (on her character) example null, or if in reality she means they are animals because of what they do (as opposed to what they are), which would make my example fitting.

Again, I don't care two tosses, I chose to interpret her text as having some logic, albeit twisted, not being off the bloody racist chain, which is what you are saying.