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talkpoliticsIt has been said that if Socialism ever came to the USA, there would be starvation, rioting in the streets, and the whole fabric of society would collapse. People would literally die as a result of policies.
Well, lets be honest, Americans have been dying of US government policies for a long time now.
Americans died as a result of the wars in Vietnam , Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Americans are dying as a result of the fact that many US citizens are tried for murder and end up on Death Row. Americans die, on average, at a significantly younger ge than people do in Sweden. Oh, and more babies per 1,000 die in America than in 31 other countries.
Fact: a baby has a better chance of reaching the age of 1, and the age of 5 in many European countries than a baby born in the USA. So much for the 'Free Market' saving lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
Now, why is this, you may ask? I mean, the USA is the one nation in the developed world where there is no National Health programme. Is this a good thing or not? Let me explain something to you that you might have missed...
Currently, in the UK, there are around 2 deaths a week on average due to women being attacked by their partners or ex partners. So, you may think that there is a real need for hostels, refuges, where women can go seeking shelter and safety. Although volunteers have opened up refuges, there are few places. there are even fewer places for boys between the ages of 14 and 17. None at all for young men aged 17 and over.Now why?
Is it because these people lack the purchasing power?
I think this one question lays bare the impotence of the Free Market in tackling social problems. Sure, if you happen to be a celebrity, a place like The Priory Clinic will take you in and detox you and help you cure your alcoholism. But if you are GI Joe, just come back from a tour of duty in 'Nam or Iraq, and you are having recurring nightmares due to having seen your buddies literally blown to bits right in front of you - well, there is not much help for you and ~your~ drinking problem.
See , when I was young , I read this book by a guy named Adam Smith, who was talking about how governments didn't need to legislate so much, because if people wanted something, the market would supply it - the market, if allowed to operate freely, was like an 'invisible hand', that would solve all people's problems.
And to ~some~ extent this is true. If you have money, and can buy what you want, someone out there will try to meet that need to make a profit. But suppose you are dirt poor? I veture to suggest that , far from falling over themselves to develop a solution to your problems , the free market will not give a damn.
Let's be honest, in the USA , men of a certain age caan get Viagra, no trouble.
But a woman who wants the pill - sometimes on prescription b/coz her physician has prescribed it to cure a hormonal imbalance that causes heavy and painful periods for instance - well, some self appointed guardian of public morals can refuse to let her have her medication because he is a pharmacist who opposes contraception on religious grounds. And, if he happens to be the only Pharmacist in a small , one horse town , what use is this 'invisble hand then?
JK Rowling is the world famous Author of the Harry Potter books.A self made millionairess. yet, she says, she will never vote Conservative or become a tax Exile.
She says that it was the safety net of Social Security that enabled her to survive when times were hard, and now that she can afford to, she has no problem with paying taxes to help women who are struggling now.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7096786.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1
This, to me, is the reason we need socialist policies in some areas.i dunno about the government buying up businesses like the phone system , or steel production - that sort of thing is best done by the private sector, I believe. but education, housing, healthcare - the government has a role here, and governments that can find a way to deliver these services well are doing a great job.
Americans ought to get real, there are lots of counties where the State is handling a lot of stuff, and people are having better outcomes than US citizens as a result. so, to any and all who suggest the Free market as a cure all, I suggest they stick the 'Invisble Hand' of Adam Smith somewhere that the sun don't shine.
Well, lets be honest, Americans have been dying of US government policies for a long time now.
Americans died as a result of the wars in Vietnam , Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Americans are dying as a result of the fact that many US citizens are tried for murder and end up on Death Row. Americans die, on average, at a significantly younger ge than people do in Sweden. Oh, and more babies per 1,000 die in America than in 31 other countries.
Fact: a baby has a better chance of reaching the age of 1, and the age of 5 in many European countries than a baby born in the USA. So much for the 'Free Market' saving lives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
Now, why is this, you may ask? I mean, the USA is the one nation in the developed world where there is no National Health programme. Is this a good thing or not? Let me explain something to you that you might have missed...
Currently, in the UK, there are around 2 deaths a week on average due to women being attacked by their partners or ex partners. So, you may think that there is a real need for hostels, refuges, where women can go seeking shelter and safety. Although volunteers have opened up refuges, there are few places. there are even fewer places for boys between the ages of 14 and 17. None at all for young men aged 17 and over.Now why?
Is it because these people lack the purchasing power?
I think this one question lays bare the impotence of the Free Market in tackling social problems. Sure, if you happen to be a celebrity, a place like The Priory Clinic will take you in and detox you and help you cure your alcoholism. But if you are GI Joe, just come back from a tour of duty in 'Nam or Iraq, and you are having recurring nightmares due to having seen your buddies literally blown to bits right in front of you - well, there is not much help for you and ~your~ drinking problem.
See , when I was young , I read this book by a guy named Adam Smith, who was talking about how governments didn't need to legislate so much, because if people wanted something, the market would supply it - the market, if allowed to operate freely, was like an 'invisible hand', that would solve all people's problems.
And to ~some~ extent this is true. If you have money, and can buy what you want, someone out there will try to meet that need to make a profit. But suppose you are dirt poor? I veture to suggest that , far from falling over themselves to develop a solution to your problems , the free market will not give a damn.
Let's be honest, in the USA , men of a certain age caan get Viagra, no trouble.
But a woman who wants the pill - sometimes on prescription b/coz her physician has prescribed it to cure a hormonal imbalance that causes heavy and painful periods for instance - well, some self appointed guardian of public morals can refuse to let her have her medication because he is a pharmacist who opposes contraception on religious grounds. And, if he happens to be the only Pharmacist in a small , one horse town , what use is this 'invisble hand then?
JK Rowling is the world famous Author of the Harry Potter books.A self made millionairess. yet, she says, she will never vote Conservative or become a tax Exile.
She says that it was the safety net of Social Security that enabled her to survive when times were hard, and now that she can afford to, she has no problem with paying taxes to help women who are struggling now.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7096786.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1
This, to me, is the reason we need socialist policies in some areas.i dunno about the government buying up businesses like the phone system , or steel production - that sort of thing is best done by the private sector, I believe. but education, housing, healthcare - the government has a role here, and governments that can find a way to deliver these services well are doing a great job.
Americans ought to get real, there are lots of counties where the State is handling a lot of stuff, and people are having better outcomes than US citizens as a result. so, to any and all who suggest the Free market as a cure all, I suggest they stick the 'Invisble Hand' of Adam Smith somewhere that the sun don't shine.
Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 00:26 (UTC)Well, no. 62% of bankrupcties cite medical bills as part of their outstanding bills. By no means does that suggest that the bills are putting them under.
For more on the problems with that study, see this (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2009/06/elizabeth-warren-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-utterly-misleading-bankruptcy-study/18826/) and this (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2009/06/why-warrens-new-bankruptcy-study-is-so-bad/18834/).
And this makes a news story? must be more than a couple of dozen , I guess, so how many would that be , precisely?
Easy - the media wants us to be angry at our health system.
Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 07:34 (UTC)that's 10% of how many million Americans?
So , what exactly happens if I need medical treatment and I am un insured in America?
Ok - I understand that Road traffic accident cases are taken in and stablised - but i have a life threatening illness, like cancer, say - or just need a hip replacement.
What is going to happen to me then ?
In the UK, I go into triage -
I will get treatment when i get to the front of the queue- and my coronary will get treated faster than my arthiritis, unless I go private.
So, how does this compare with no insurance across the pond?
Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 11:36 (UTC)About 30m without insurance - not 30m without the ability or without health care, just 30m uninsured. A relative drop in the bucket.
So , what exactly happens if I need medical treatment and I am un insured in America?
You go and you pay for it out of pocket.
Ok - I understand that Road traffic accident cases are taken in and stablised - but i have a life threatening illness, like cancer, say - or just need a hip replacement.
What is going to happen to me then ?
You go and you pay for it out of pocket.
So, how does this compare with no insurance across the pond?
You'll get treatment when you need it, not when the government thinks you'll need it.
Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 15:56 (UTC)And, if said pockets and bank balance are all empty, then you don't get anything, ever, at all?
Right?
You'll get treatment when you need it, not when the government thinks you'll need it.
Don't you mean
" You get treated when you can pay, and if you can't - tough luck." ...?
If this is the case, let's be honest about it.
in the UK, we will ave your life if you have a coronary, or a road accident.
having had a ski ing accident in Switzerland, I soon found that I needed health insurace, which fortunately, I did.
However, for 30 million people in the USA, insurance isn't there.
Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 16:56 (UTC)Right?
No. Our laws are set up where no one can be denied care.
Don't you mean
" You get treated when you can pay, and if you can't - tough luck." ...?
Nope, I said exactly what I meant.
in the UK, we will ave your life if you have a coronary, or a road accident.
Well, maybe. Assuming the queue isn't too long at the ER.
However, for 30 million people in the USA, insurance isn't there.
But without asking why, you can't really say it's "not there." Care is still there even without insurance.
Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 18:14 (UTC)strange - so are ours. but we pay taxes.
How exactly do you traet people who have no health insurance?
If you can still get treatment without it, why do people pay for it anyway?
Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 18:40 (UTC)Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 20:00 (UTC)if you need a hip replacement in the USA, and can't afford the fees - who pays and how long does it take to get the problem fixed? Does it get fixed at all?
Re: Not so fast...
Date: 3/6/10 21:11 (UTC)