Why the ' Invisble Hand ' does not always work..

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

It has been said that if Socialism ever came to the USA, there would be starvation, rioting in the streets, and the whole fabric of society would collapse. People would literally die as a result of policies.

Well, lets be honest, Americans have been dying of US government policies for a long time now.

Americans died as a result of the wars in Vietnam , Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Americans are dying as a result of the fact that many US citizens are tried for murder and end up on Death Row. Americans die, on average, at a significantly younger ge than people do in Sweden. Oh, and more babies per 1,000 die in America than in 31 other countries.
Fact: a baby has a better chance of reaching the age of 1, and the age of 5 in many European countries than a baby born in the USA. So much for the 'Free Market' saving lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Now, why is this, you may ask? I mean, the USA is the one nation in the developed world where there is no National Health programme. Is this a good thing or not? Let me explain something to you that you might have missed...

Currently, in the UK, there are around 2 deaths a week on average due to women being attacked by their partners or ex partners. So, you may think that there is a real need for hostels, refuges, where women can go seeking shelter and safety. Although volunteers have opened up refuges, there are few places. there are even fewer places for boys between the ages of 14 and 17. None at all for young men aged 17 and over.Now why?

Is it because these people lack the purchasing power?

I think this one question lays bare the impotence of the Free Market in tackling social problems. Sure, if you happen to be a celebrity, a place like The Priory Clinic will take you in and detox you and help you cure your alcoholism. But if you are GI Joe, just come back from a tour of duty in 'Nam or Iraq, and you are having recurring nightmares due to having seen your buddies literally blown to bits right in front of you - well, there is not much help for you and ~your~ drinking problem.

See , when I was young , I read this book by a guy named Adam Smith, who was talking about how governments didn't need to legislate so much, because if people wanted something, the market would supply it - the market, if allowed to operate freely, was like an 'invisible hand', that would solve all people's problems.

And to ~some~ extent this is true. If you have money, and can buy what you want, someone out there will try to meet that need to make a profit. But suppose you are dirt poor? I veture to suggest that , far from falling over themselves to develop a solution to your problems , the free market will not give a damn.

Let's be honest, in the USA , men of a certain age caan get Viagra, no trouble.
But a woman who wants the pill - sometimes on prescription b/coz her physician has prescribed it to cure a hormonal imbalance that causes heavy and painful periods for instance - well, some self appointed guardian of public morals can refuse to let her have her medication because he is a pharmacist who opposes contraception on religious grounds. And, if he happens to be the only Pharmacist in a small , one horse town , what use is this 'invisble hand then?

JK Rowling is the world famous Author of the Harry Potter books.A self made millionairess. yet, she says, she will never vote Conservative or become a tax Exile.
She says that it was the safety net of Social Security that enabled her to survive when times were hard, and now that she can afford to, she has no problem with paying taxes to help women who are struggling now.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7096786.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

This, to me, is the reason we need socialist policies in some areas.i dunno about the government buying up businesses like the phone system , or steel production - that sort of thing is best done by the private sector, I believe. but education, housing, healthcare - the government has a role here, and governments that can find a way to deliver these services well are doing a great job.

Americans ought to get real, there are lots of counties where the State is handling a lot of stuff, and people are having better outcomes than US citizens as a result. so, to any and all who suggest the Free market as a cure all, I suggest they stick the 'Invisble Hand' of Adam Smith somewhere that the sun don't shine.

Comments

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I actually don't care all that much if we have a lower overall life expectancy, I do care however about the precarious position we put the middle class in with our predatory health insurance system.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

But do you care enough to want to try to change the system?

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I care enough to vote in favor of people that want to move closer to single payer.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Please tell us more about this "precarious position", I must have missed a news article regarding the recent middle class hardships.

[blorky.livejournal.com]

You need to read up on Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and how infant mortality statistics are compiled.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Really? Maybe you would like to back that up with some facts...

[ygrii-blop.livejournal.com]

NOBODEY BETTAR NEEVAR TAEK MY MONNAY GIVIN IT TO SAHQEENA TINNAGE WEFFARE MOM DRIVIN A CALLIADAC LOL

[redemwaru08.livejournal.com]

actually i live in england and you know what?
the gov. paying for hospitals and education is one of the best things to ever happen to this country.
you can choose to get health insurance to get a posh hospital room but ultimately paramedics dont check your wallet before they check your pulse.
And we have systems in place to ensure most kids go to uni.
Socialist-like ideals work, and the un informed right refuse to admit it, in fact that idiotic right idea has wormed its way into my country to the point we elect an idiot who is like a younger version of bush.
So now we are in danger of losing it all

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'you can choose to get health insurance to get a posh hospital room but ultimately paramedics dont check your wallet before they check your pulse.'

You would know this because?

Paramedics don't ask for health insurance. They give emergency care regardless of ability to pay.

'So now we are in danger of losing it all'

Not admitting the reality around you is not a problem caused by others. The NHS is in trouble. Deal with it.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

And we have systems in place to ensure most kids go to uni.

This is a good thing???

Uni is fine so long as you're fit enough to get through the course and get a well paid job afterwards, if you notice your illness after the course starts and leave, you're in debt up to your eyeballs with bugger all but memories to show for it.

the gov. paying for hospitals and education is one of the best things to ever happen to this country.

In your opinion of course?

Me, I'd suggest that the NHS should be run as a non-profit the way Housing associations are, the problem in blighty is that there are too many bean-counters, in the states (Under the insurance system) I'm led to believe if you were sick, they'd look for every possible problem till you got better, then billed the insurance company? Whilst I'll accept that the poor and uninsured didn't get the same service, I am of the opinion everyone should. (But I'm a little biased on this one, having an ailment government thinks gonna cost to much to fix)

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

All I know is, if I am going to get prostate cancer, I want it to be in the USA, not the UK. In fact, if anyone I love is touched by cancer I hope they are treated by the harsh realities of the US Health Care system... they have a better chance, on average, of surviving.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Got any stats to back that statement up, please?

to be honest, prostate cancer hits people who are already old.
i would rather be in a country that looks after children if i am gonna be born anywhere. that way , i might live to an age where I can actually get prostsate cancer and take my chances...

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

You only love white people with money I'm guessing?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

If they have good insurance ...

[omnot.livejournal.com]

By the way, the reason that prostate cancer survival rates look so good in the USA is because of the screening program.

They are finding more prostate cancers that would never have been discovered otherwise, as they show no symptoms, grow veeeery slowly therefore require no treatment unless the person bearing it lives so long that it becomes a problem.

Citation in one of my other links, I think. Not that evidence will make any difference to you.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

I have two parents surviving Cancer in Sweden. My dad's prostate cancer was discovered and treated very speedily, he could choose 3 different methods and is cancer free and under regular controls, 3 years later. My mom got 1/3 of her lung removed through surgery due to cancer, 10 years cancer free.

If me or my husband get the big c, we will be moving to Sweden.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'Americans died as a result of the wars in Vietnam , Iraq, and Afghanistan.
Americans are dying as a result of the fact that many US citizens are tried for murder and end up on Death Row. Americans die, on average, at a significantly younger ge than people do in Sweden. Oh, and more babies per 1,000 die in America than in 31 other countries.
Fact: a baby has a better chance of reaching the age of 1, and the age of 5 in many European countries than a baby born in the USA. So much for the 'Free Market' saving lives.'

Fine, we'll send you all our Mexicans.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Are you saying that you could care for your own if only these mexicans would stop coming over your border, or what?
what have these mexicans got to do with the fact that your figures are worse than ours? You think that refugees don't turn up in the Uk or other european countries or something ?

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Fine, we'll send you all our Mexicans.

Sure, so long as we can return the Mcdonalds franchise :) at least then the british people would eat better;)

We could also trade you some Indians (both west, and India Indians) but you can't have them all, they're the only ones that seem to know how to make a good curry.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Well, lets be honest, Americans have been dying of US government policies for a long time now.

Unsurprising, since we've been slowly creeping closer and closer to socialism.

Now, why is this, you may ask? I mean, the USA is the one nation in the developed world where there is no National Health programme. Is this a good thing or not? Let me explain something to you that you might have missed...

I noticed that you went along with this line of thought without noting that there is no consistent international measurement of what constitutes a live birth. The reason the US ranks so highly is because we pretty much call anything living a live birth. Not so in many Euro countries.

I think this one question lays bare the impotence of the Free Market in tackling social problems. Sure, if you happen to be a celebrity, a place like The Priory Clinic will take you in and detox you and help you cure your alcoholism. But if you are GI Joe, just come back from a tour of duty in 'Nam or Iraq, and you are having recurring nightmares due to having seen your buddies literally blown to bits right in front of you - well, there is not much help for you and ~your~ drinking problem.

This is funny because the most socialized medicine we have here is our Veteran's services.

Let's be honest, in the USA , men of a certain age caan get Viagra, no trouble.
But a woman who wants the pill - sometimes on prescription b/coz her physician has prescribed it to cure a hormonal imbalance that causes heavy and painful periods for instance - well, some self appointed guardian of public morals can refuse to let her have her medication because he is a pharmacist who opposes contraception on religious grounds. And, if he happens to be the only Pharmacist in a small , one horse town , what use is this 'invisble hand then?

Well, that's because the pill requires a prescription, for one - a rule put in place by government to restrict the market.

For another, the pill may be prescribed for reasons outside of birth control, but it's still primarily used for birth control.

JK Rowling is the world famous Author of the Harry Potter books.A self made millionairess. yet, she says, she will never vote Conservative or become a tax Exile.
She says that it was the safety net of Social Security that enabled her to survive when times were hard, and now that she can afford to, she has no problem with paying taxes to help women who are struggling now.

good for her. Ignorant, IMO, but good for her.

I believe. but education, housing, healthcare - the government has a role here, and governments that can find a way to deliver these services well are doing a great job.

Why haven't they yet?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

{Unsurprising, since we've been slowly creeping closer and closer to socialism.}
What is surprising is that we have got socialism to a level that your citizens can only dream of, yet our health outcomes for child mortality are much better than yours. or maybe it isn't...

{I noticed that you went along with this line of thought without noting that there is no consistent international measurement of what constitutes a live birth. The reason the US ranks so highly is because we pretty much call anything living a live birth. Not so in many Euro countries.}
Yeah - and I noticed that the UK and USA use exactly the same system , but that Britain beats the USA hands down.

{Well, that's because the pill requires a prescription, for one - a rule put in place by government to restrict the market.
For another, the pill may be prescribed for reasons outside of birth control, but it's still primarily used for birth control.}
whatever reasons you may wish to cite, whatever lame and pathetic excuses you may wish to make - you can still get the pill in Britain a damned sight more easily in the USA!


(Why haven't they yet?}
well they have done rather better in europe than over the water in the USA , it seems. good night.

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

Here are some apples...and over there are some oranges...and beyond that are some grapes and even the odd bit of lettuce.

Thus I have proven my point to be true such than none can deny it.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

Your comment may have some validity if the US actually had anything resembling a free market.

Second many of the statistics that show 'better outcomes' in the more socialist countries are skewed by differences created by those self same systems. For example, in American Medicine Doctors routinely go to what is refered to as heroic lengths to save a baby regardless of what birth defects it may have. In Europe however that baby is often aborted or categorized as still birth without the doctors doing anything to save it. This alone skews the 'infant mortality' rate as it changes the number of 'live births'. In other cases the statistics are skewed by the particular demographics of the countries involved and not the health systems of those countries.

Third. What Socialists always miss about the Free Market is that Charity is a good like any other and the more free the market the more common charity is. See Humans are social animals and it is in our genes to protect all members of our 'tribe' from any and all threats. This is one of the traits that has allowed us to survive because where the herd of gazelle will run off and watch the lion eat their slowest member the tribe of protohumans attacked the lion until they learned not to attack those damned hairless monkeys anymore. However when government gets involved in the charity business it crowds out private charity, both because it takes such a large chunk out of the economy that people have less to give, and because it fosters the belief that 'the government will handle it' and 'it's the government's job'.

Sixth. The next thing that socialists miss is that in a free market where there are no legal barriers to entry in the market there will only very rarely be a shortage of work because even those with no money can start their own businesses. The need for long term welfare would all but be eliminated. Yes there would still be some, those with physical and mental handicaps primarily but the argument 'what if you were dirt poor' would be a non sequitor because anyone who was healthy and willing would be capable of finding work and raising themselves to not being 'dirt poor' any longer. In fact even today for as far from a free market as America has 80% of those whose income ranks in the bottom quintile have moved up to the second or third quintile for income within a mere 5 years.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

hmm, no clue what happened to my 4th and 5th points but they were long and I'm too tired to retype them tonight.

[sealwhiskers.livejournal.com]

1. not agreeing is not the same as "missing" a point. You might consider that people might disagree with you, and still "get" these generic libertarian points posed here.

2. Do you have anything that's not anecdotal on these horrible European doctors who let babies die en masse? And no, an opinion piece from the Cato Institute or the like won't do.