(no subject)

[oportet.livejournal.com]

I'm not a liberal, but if I was, I can't imagine what I would have against the Tea Party movement - so hopefully a liberal/democrat could help me out with this.

I understand the movement is made up mostly of conservatives, so wouldn't that either be a good, or at worst, neutral thing for you when elections come around?

Sure, the Tea Party isn't an official party with representatives, but when a big (or the big) election comes around, they'll most likely endorse someone (If they don't, that would fall under neutral). If the person/people they back are Republican, you saw it coming, and you'll pretty much have the same outcome there would have been if the TP never existed (again, neutral result). If the person/people they back aren't Republican, it wouldn't be taking many, if any, votes away from your side - nowhere near the number it would be taking away from Republicans (this would fall under good for you).

Or am I missing something?

Comments

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

I understand the movement is made up mostly of conservatives,

ding ding ding. we have a winnah.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

Yes, that would be the *only* reasons Liberals would support them...
uh huh..

not the calls of Socialism/Marxists/Fascists against Liberals?

not the calls of anti-intellectualism?

not the implicit threats of violence ("If they want my gun, I'll give them the bullets first")?

not the backing of racist policies (see Arizona)?

not that the premise of the "Taxed Enough Already" party looks silly when taxes this year were record low and next year will follow suit?


... yeah, it couldn't be any of THOSE things....

just that their conservatives....uh huh...

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

aren't mischaracterations fun? you should have been a propagandist.

than again. maybe you are.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

What mischaracterizations?? This forum has been full of links backing
everything I just said.

Are we going to be revising history today where you claim "they're misunderstood"??

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

liberal links backing the liberal links from liberal links? yes, such proof is damning indeed.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

And apparently the truth of those links is irrelevant.

Arizona just passed a law legalizing racial profiling and requiring people to "carry papers" -- something I've heard support from a number of Tea Party members. You can imagine Liberals would be less than thrilled about the very police state the Tea Party accuses us of trying to create.

and signs reading "We'll give them the bullets first"?? Yeah, probably just anamolies... that keep happening over and over....


But I see your point -- so long as we attack the *source* and not the CONTENT then you can claim "mischaracterization" regardless of the truth.

It's a WIN-WIN!!

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

can't argue with you there. there's nothing more proof-positive of your views than pictures on the internetz.

i can find asuch signs too, and prove all liberals are radical commies, but then that wouldn't really prove anything.

as for arizona, well they're just getting a head start on the rest of the country. illegal immigration is a growing problem that politicians such as yourself refuse to confront head on.

the way to end illegal immigration is very simple, fix the problem at the employment end and it will stop very quickly.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

I'm a politician?? WOW!!! I didn't even know.

In this case I agree with you that the employment situation has to be worked on to address the problem, although I suspect our agreement probably ends here and probably not with HOW it should be fixed...

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

probasbly true. employers would have to ascertain proof of citizenship, and/or right to work, and that's apparently an affront to human rights in certain circles.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

No, enforcement of existing laws and regulations is *not* a protest point of most Liberals I know.

That is different from some of the worker programs that keep getting proposed -- but few Liberals would argue with enforcing existing rules and regulations.

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

but the existing rules and regulations aren't working.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

They're not working because they're not being enforced...

[debergerac.livejournal.com]

and who's responsibility is that?

[light-over-me.livejournal.com]

not that the premise of the "Taxed Enough Already" party looks silly when taxes this year were record low and next year will follow suit?

It's not just the taxes we have right now, but the impending future taxes that will likely come down the pike to us and our children if the government does not work to seriously curb it's spending and continues to increase the deficit at this rate (and yes there are many Republicans guilty of this as well). For example, a new VAT is still on the table (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/21/obama-vat-may-be-a-revenu_n_547237.html) being considered.

And then there's local state taxes which are becoming out of control in many places (such as Massachusetts). You could hear a lot of this sentiment at the local Tea Parties taking place in cities such as Boston, etc. We're not just talking current federal income tax here.

I'm sure the original "Boston Tea Party" seemed silly too after Parliament went and cut the Townshend taxes-- all except for that symbolic Tea Tax. Why? Because it wasn't just about getting lower taxes, but the principle of Parliament's right to impose taxes as it saw fit without representation. Now today, we are talking about elected officials we voted in, so it's not the same. But many involved in this "Tea Party" moment today feel as if their elected representatives are not in fact listening to their constituents and carrying out the will of the people they are supposed to represent. Congress seems to do whatever it wants-- just look at the recent approval ratings, people have lost trust and faith in Congress to do it's job.

And as for Arizona? Would never have happened if the Federal Government were doing it's job to secure the borders like it should. But it isn't and it hasn't been, and both parties are guilty of this as well. I saw a post about a man being pulled over to have his papers checked--and there was shock and outrage. Yes, racial profiling can be a problem. But then, not a word about the Arizona rancher being killed on his own property. Liberals have sympathy for people being asked to show their papers, but none for victims of border violence? Why? Something is wrong with that picture. That law was supported by 70% of Arizonans, despite having concerns about possible civil rights violations...because they feel the situation has just gotten that serious and nothing is being done on a federal level. I'm sure this was not "option A".

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

So now you're protesting taxes that haven't happened yet and wont even appear on the horizon for another 2 years?

I guess you guys are penciling in dates on the calendar for when you can actually look for problems to complain about then??


And concerning Arizona: Securing the borders has been argued asa STATE issue since people dont like the Federal government telling them what to do...

So is it "States Rights" so long as the State doesnt do anything?


As far as a rancheer being killed/crime in Arizona --- there are **other** solutions than racial profiling and asking for "papers" ala 1943 Berlin...

[light-over-me.livejournal.com]

As far as a rancheer being killed/crime in Arizona --- there are **other** solutions than racial profiling and asking for "papers" ala 1943 Berlin...

All these other solutions only work so as far as they are actually implemented and enforced. As I said, I'm sure this was not choice #1. But you can only keep pushing people so far. There is drug/gang violence occurring, people are breaking the law, and the citizens of Arizona felt it was necessary to put their safety first. Don't like it? Then we need to start voting in people who actually care about the problem and make it a priority.

There are plenty of countries who do actually enforce their borders and immigration laws--I don't see why we have to be an exception. And yes, there are countries which expect you to be able to show your papers if you're caught doing something suspicious, or who will actually deport you if you're found being there illegally or breaking the law.

Also let's not jump the gun and get our panties in a twist about Nazism. Illegals here have it pretty good, you know. You know there are some countries out there who will not hesitate to put you in prison for life or execute you as a foreigner if you are caught trafficking illegal drugs within their borders. I bet those 4 Japanese citizens put to death in China recently for drug smuggling would have been better off had someone rather checked their papers and deported them.

[rainynights.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you! I too noticed the story about the Arizona Rancher disappeared from all but Fox News after a few days. Where is the outrage that a good and decent person was murdered for helping someone who of course was an illegal. I also agree that both parties are to blame. Bush did not do a good job securing the borders and Obama has done little to nothing oh except allow His Homeland Security lackey to defund what little was there. We do not allow our border guards to do their jobs without jail time. I mean its all a huge mess.. I have zero sympathy for illegals.

[rainynights.livejournal.com]

I can see your point. Rest assured I am not a racist but I am glad this law was put into place. We can no longer wait on the federal government to do anything. They had the chance and now I think the states need to start helping their own.

I could care less what color someone is they could be green or purple and commit a murder and I would still be just as disgusted with it. The story of that girl is so sad! The white guy is the scum of the earth just like I think that illegal is as well. But I am sure the white guy was sadly an American citizen. There are lots of local stories who never make national media but make local news and I just can not be everywhere. If this story did make national news I am sorry I missed it.

My point was that this mad was killed by the very people he helped. You can not tell me we do not have a problem here in the united states with illegal immigration. I am all for people who want to legally come here! It really is a slap in the face to those people who do things right and come here and then on the other hand we do nothing to businesses or illegals to stop this.

I hope this law helps. I am all for it. I am sorry if people are profiled yeah it sucks but at some point someone has to do something. They do not let the boarder guards do their jobs without throwing them in jail. I am glad Arizona took a step and are doing something. With every law I am sure there are problems that hopefully will be ironed out. Look at the freaking health care bill full of problems but I have no choice but to sit here and endure what will become a disaster.

I also know that alot of illegals are not just mexican or latino i am sure there are people from Europe too that are here illegally but I think the majority and I could be wrong are from Mexico.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I am sorry if people are profiled yeah it sucks but at some point someone has to do something

I hope that upon some reflection, you can hear just how chilling a statement that is.

[rainynights.livejournal.com]

let me rephrase..

I am sorry if people are profiled. Something does have to be done about immigration but I hope that this law will do more help than damage. Profiling is not always a bad thing. They profile at airports to keep us safe. If they want to stop me to search me or see my proof I am a citizen I am more than willing to do so I have nothing to hide. If they want to search me at an airport I am more than willing to do so to keep my self and my children safe.

I am tired of illegals coming here and taking jobs that hard working Americans could have. I do not buy that oh well the do jobs other people wont.. well whatever I could care less. They are breaking the LAW.. I have zero sympathy for whatever race or color they are. I am not racist just a law abiding citizen =) I expect the same of others.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I am sorry if people are profiled.

That's not enough. Targetting people who are innocent based on a profile is a violation of their rights. How do you have "reasonable suspicion" that someone is illegal outside of very, very limited circumstances? Arizona has millions of citizens and legal immigrants who look exactly like the "typical profile" of an illegal in that state -- unless you limit yourself to demanding papers when the police enter a restaurant and half the bus boys run out of the back door, you are going to sweep up huge numbers of legal immigrants, tourists and citizens this way.

That's an affront.

[light-over-me.livejournal.com]

How do you have "reasonable suspicion" that someone is illegal outside of very, very limited circumstances?

Well, let's look at the legal definitions.

Reasonable suspicion has been defined by the U.S. Supreme Court as "the sort of common-sense conclusion about human behavior upon which practical people . . . are entitled to rely." Further, it has defined reasonable suspicion as requiring only something more than an "unarticulated hunch." It requires facts or circumstances that give rise to more than a bare, imaginary, or purely conjectural suspicion. - source (http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/reasonable-suspicion)

An objectively justifiable suspicion that is based on specific facts or circumstances and that justifies stopping and sometimes searching (as by frisking) a person thought to be involved in criminal activity at the time

[...]

A police officer stopping a person must be able to point to specific facts or circumstances even though the level of suspicion need not rise to that of the belief that is supported by probable cause. A reasonable suspicion is more than a hunch. - source (http://dictionary.getlegal.com/reasonable-suspicion).

Reasonable suspicion is a legal standard in United States law that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences. It is the basis for an investigatory or Terry stop by the police and requires less evidence than probable cause, the legal requirement for arrests and warrants. Reasonable suspicion is evaluated using the "reasonable person" or "reasonable officer" standard, in which said person in the same circumstances could reasonably believe a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity; such suspicion is not a mere hunch. Police may also, based solely on reasonable suspicion of a threat to safety, frisk a suspect for weapons, but not for contraband like drugs. A combination of particular facts, even if each is individually innocuous, can form the basis of reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is also sometimes called "arguable suspicion". - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion)

So, as we can see, it requires more than just a hunch, and requires some facts or circumstances to back it up beyond just a whim or guess...

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

So again -- given that illegals don't look substantively different than tourists, legal aliens and lots of citizens in Arizona, what circumstance, outside of extremely limited and narrow contexts, will give law enforcement "reasonable suspicion" to demand papers?

And how will the provision allowing citizens to SUE if they think police departments aren't doing enough incentivize them?

[light-over-me.livejournal.com]

As citizens we are already asked to produce our ID all of the time...whenever we buy something with a credit card, apply for a new job, rent an apartment, or get stopped by the cops for any reason. When we renew our driver's license. Or make a withdrawal at a bank. When we buy alcohol or cigarettes....or go through security at the airport, etc. I very recently had to produce my passport for my employer so my proof of citizenship could be on file. Are you also offended by all of these things? People are asked for the "papers" to prove who they are every day. How many times have you been asked for your social security number, or your driver's license?

There are many countries which ask that foreigners and tourists carry around their passport or ID, this is really not as unusual and harsh as you're making it sound. If you're not doing anything wrong and are obeying the law, what exactly do you have to fear or hide? In other countries that do have similar laws (such as Japan), it's unlikely you're gonna get pulled over and singled out at random unless you're actually doing something suspicious-- for example, hanging around a shady part of Roppongi late at night, where drug deals are known to go down, smelling like marijuana. Or acting drunk and disorderly on a street corner. Is it really that big of an inconvenience when there's very real drug and gang violence taking place?

If you really want to talk about harsh treatment of foreigners breaking laws across borders, lets talk about Indonesia. Or the middle east. Various countries in Africa, or China-- where bringing drugs across their borders can get you slapped with the death penalty on the spot.

Now, I am personally part native american, and I sometimes do get mistaken for being latina, or half white and something else. I sympathize with the possibility of people getting judge by their looks, I do. I'm not saying this law in Arizona was the best available option... but the federal government has been sitting on it hands doing nothing for long enough, while the situation has continued to get worse, and citizens felt the need to protect themselves. The law does stipulate that a cop would need some kind of reasonable suspicion. That means they can't just walk up to a woman minding her own business and harass her at complete random and with no reason. So yes, the way I read the bill, it sounds like they need to be doing something suspicious other than merely walking around with a different skin color.