Out of touch, eh?

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

It's curious how Meryl Streep's speech (a giant in the profession of acting), which mostly dealt with not-so-overtly political issues, as much as it was calling for empathy and civic vigilance in the upcoming Trump era, was massively denounced (because, you see, an actress has dared to speak of something beyond the latest Gucci outfit, the pearl necklaces of the celebrities, Kim's fake ass, or on some rare occasions, the creative process in cinema in the best case)... And Leo DiCaprio (admittedly an underrated actor, but hardly of Mrs Streep's caliber even in the best case estimations) receives emphatic pats on the back and massive admiration merely for making 40 years of age and having assumed the role of some sort of Al Gore v.2.0? Am I the only one to sense double standard here?

The way I'm reading this, because Leo has a penis this gives him much greater leeway; hell, Robert DeNiro had a boorish statement about Trump, and he wasn't scolded even remotely as harshly as Madonna was. In 2003, Sean Penn gave a rambling speech about the fake WMDs at the Oscars, but again no one decided an actor has no right to use that tribune to flount their political biases. But when an actual actress even hints at a political commentary - Vanessa Redgrave for instance - everyone instantly dogpiles her, hastening to point a finger and put her in her place.

Because, you see, Leo DiCaprio who's been waving his beer belly flanked by an entourage of 18 y.o. wannabe starlets, cannot be declared out-of-touch, but Meryl Streep, Susan Sarandon and Vanessa Redgrave suddenly live in their "Hollywood bubble" and don't know shit about the problems of the regular Joe from Iowa? Please.

On a side note:
2012 Trump: Meryl Streep is one of my favorite actresses!
2017 Trump: Meryl Streep is one of the most overrated actresses!

Sounds just like,
2012 Trump: The Electoral College is a disaster for democracy!
2017 Trump: I won so big OMG LOL!

Comments

(frozen) (no subject)

[garote]

That, my friend, is the great thing about art. It gives you a chance to assess things you may never have thought of before.

Take a good look at the pictures you posted.

Madonna and Lady Gaga are wearing outfits that would not be out of place in a fashion-forward yoga class. Madonna isn't even posed provocatively - she's just sitting there.

You're going to have to do some work here to define exactly what makes these women "sluts" and what that means. It's not a freebie.

Is it because they're wearing black, and that's evocative of walking the streets at night?
Many of my goth friends in high school wore all black, all the time. I assume you just didn't get the same normalizing experience I did from hanging around them.

In the photo, Miley Cyrus is wearing an outfit that's still perfectly respectable for a day out at the beach, or at a public pool. It's just got extra dangly bits on it, to look more interesting as it moves. I do believe that's Robin Thicke behind her, with one hand holding her head in place.

Why aren't you calling Robin Thicke a slut?

Take the opportunity offered by these performers to think about clothes and your own biases. Or, just enjoy the performance. Or don't. But whatever you do, don't just bring your own biases to the table and apply them without examination. That's just a waste of time.

(frozen) (no subject)

[dreamville-bg.livejournal.com]

"That, my friend, is the great thing about art. It gives you a chance to assess things you may never have thought of before."

Bullshit.

Oh, I did enjoy the performance. What I'm not enjoying, and what you're deliberately failing to understand, is that after such performances they'd presume to lecture me about the treatment of women. What a joke.

One thing you're right about. This IS a waste of time.

(frozen) (no subject)

[garote]

Women can lecture you about the treatment of women wearing whatever they want. If you don't care to listen, that's your deal.

But since you've gone ahead and given specific reasons for why you think a woman should be wearing - what, exactly, a hijab? - in order to be qualified to speak for her sex, I'm gonna call you on the floor for them. Your reasons make no sense.

Does the way they dress just make you feel personally uncomfortable? Why?

(frozen) (no subject)

[dreamville-bg.livejournal.com]

The way they BEHAVE is the problem here. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Are you a brick wall?

(frozen) (no subject)

[garote]

Ah, okay. Yes. "Waving their vaginas around," was the way you put it?

I suppose if you take a non-literal definition of that, then sure, Miley and Gaga have incorporated that sort of thing into their performances. (Cyrus is known more for waving her tongue around though, I'd say.) Madonna was popular back in a time when you could get into trouble for a lot less, but by your definition I bet we could accuse her of "waving her tits around".

I don't agree with your definition, though.

I mean, I've seen women waving their tits around. Like, literally, waving them around. (You need to have certain unreal proportions to accomplish it, but it can be done.) I've seen them do it for money. You can't really wave a vagina, but you can smoke a cigarette with it if you practice for a long time (NOT recommended) and fit a quite astonishing quantity of stuff inside one (an entire rack of standard-size pool balls, in one memorable example - her stage name was Suzy Ming and she lived in Oakland down near Fruitvale in the 90's) but you know what, after a lot of ... um ... study, I have to conclude that it doesn't disqualify these women from talking about exploitation and the struggle for sexual freedom, it makes them more qualified.

Take it back to your smoker analogy. Built in to that is the assumption that the thing being done - smoking - is bad. But that analogy doesn't fit, because that assumption doesn't fit. Curious people paid Suzy Ming a hilarious amount of money to see what she did. (I never witnessed it personally but she lived in the apartment above mine for a while and we had a few interesting discussions.) They didn't "boo" the performance either. Anyone who would have, self-selected out by not buying a ticket. I think the most you can say, standing outside the whole consensual exchange, is that it isn't to your taste. And that's fine of course.

But taking that matter of taste, and using it to condemn the opinions and perspective of anyone involved when they talk about sexual matters or have opinions about women's rights or political activism ... What makes you feel so morally superior that you can do that? Just because you find something they do icky?

(frozen) (no subject)

[dreamville-bg.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with your definition, though.

I know.

What makes you feel so morally superior

I don't. It's not me who has campaigned against things I've myself engaged in. You're ascribing again things to me. AGAIN. You're certainly not here for a debate. You're here to bully.

You know what? I think I'm done with this conversation. I gain nothing from it. I've already given way too much attention to an issue I neither care that much about, nor have I intended to make it into a big issue - yet, I got sucked in. So, say whatever you want from now on, do join the other bullies and call me whatever you want. Go ahead, bully some more. Please have the last word, like you're evidently used to.

(frozen) (no subject)

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

A beach. Really? Her attire is what you believe was problematic there? Did you even watch that performance, or you're just acting dumb here for the sake of argument?

(frozen) (no subject)

[garote]

Oh I saw the performance. I think Miley Cyrus' whole persona is stupid, but at the same time I've been around long enough to recognize when something is just not to my taste and not make a big fuss about it. To me, she's a kid. Her music and her concerts are primarily for tweens and teens, and even then only for some - definitely not all. (I'm pretty sure all five of my nephews, aged 5-16, barely know she exists.)

But yes, in this particular case, I am "acting dumb" in that I am starting with what she's wearing. Because I'm having an argument with Captain Dreamville here, who has called her a slut, and if we can establish it's not about her dress, then it must be about her behavior. And it takes two to tango, as they say, so why not go after Robin Thicke as well?

Presumably because he hasn't dared to make a somewhat political statement...?

(frozen) (no subject)

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

So you're OK with her setting the example for tweens-n-teens that she is setting?

- in this particular case, I am "acting dumb"

That, you definitely are.

- has called her a slut

He has said she behaves like a slut. You are aware of the difference, right? Or you're acting dumb here as well?

- Presumably because he hasn't dared to make a somewhat political statement...?

Now you're on to something here. In fact, "Captain Dreamville" has repeated several times that the problem occurs when she starts preaching political statements despite her behavior. Not the behavior itself. So you ARE capable of NOT acting dumb after all, even if only occasionally.

That's what happens when you craft a strawman. You don't get a real debate - what you get is a quarrel.

(frozen) (no subject)

[garote]

What is this example she is setting? Please enlighten me.

I'm not crafting any strawmen here. It's perfectly acceptable to take a chain of reasoning I disagree with apart, and disagree with the links individually. Do you really think it's worth equivocating "behaving like a a slut" and "being a slut"? Is that the crucial point around which this debate evolves? :P

(frozen) (no subject)

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

What is this example she is setting? Please enlighten me.

Ah. You're playing dumb again. OK.

(frozen) (no subject)

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

You know what, folks?

This conversation is not going anywhere. I've been seeing all sorts of epithets being tossed around with an ever increasing frequency.

I've tried to stay away, hoping you'd settle this in a civil way. Obviously it ain't going to work.

So I'm shutting it down altogether. I'd suggest that everyone involved cools their jets for a while now.

And yes, in case someone hasn't understood what I'm saying, this is a warning.