![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
dreamville-bg.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
talkpoliticsHow to avoid being spat at, beaten, abused, or gang-raped by foreigners in your own country without being accused of having "looked for it" by "enticing" them, or prosecuted for trying to defend yourself?
Cologne mayor Henriette Reker has a recommendation: keep strangers at a distance of beyond an arm's length.
To some, the idea may actually turn out to be rather ingenious.
And we all know the outcome, don't we.
Cologne mayor Henriette Reker has a recommendation: keep strangers at a distance of beyond an arm's length.
To some, the idea may actually turn out to be rather ingenious.
And we all know the outcome, don't we.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 08:51 (UTC)...But when a horde of people from another country rampage on the streets, that same police bends over backwards to downsize the issue, and even present it as if YOU are the one responsible for it?
What sort of lawful state is that? And what gives it the legitimacy to pontificate about anything remotely related to justice, and human rights!?
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 08:56 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 10:16 (UTC)It is possible to dislike, and be antithetical towards: racism, sexism, and homophobia, the language of oppression, and general bad manners, without turning a blind eye to manifestly criminal behaviour merely because the perps are people to whom you have been kind and given alms and shelter.
Criminal acts are criminal acts, if you will excuse the tautology. They deserve the sanctions reserved for such actions. Mitigating circumstances may or may not be taken in to account, but that depends on individual contexts.
However, the lumpen and somewhat dog-whistle categorisation of good manners, courtesy, and noble feeling as "political correctness" which is a common trope amongst almost everyone from the centre to the fringes of the right, looks like a lazy appeal to lazy thinkers.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 11:07 (UTC)The really lazy thing here is to keep pretending that the problem doesn't exist, or that it isn't as serious as it is. The one even lazier thing is to stick labels to people and call them all sorts of names for the mere fact of bringing up the problem.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:10 (UTC)But that doesn't obviate any need to treat other folk with respect and charity. Just because some part of a group of folk are a bunch of wankers doesn't mean all parts of the group are.
BTW which part of my reply to you pretended the problem doesn't exist? Which part of it found any of the actions mentioned acceptable?
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:17 (UTC)I agree that all refugees shouldn't be lumped into the same pot with these wankers. The problem is, the wankers constitute a staggeringly huge part of that segment, which warrants a more stringent approach to handling the presence of the ENTIRE group. I'm talking of background checks, determining who's eligible for asylum, finding out who has got extremist history, putting efforts for sexual and cultural education, AND most importantly: using OUR OWN LAWS to their full extent as soon as a crime has been established. All this hand-waving, excuses and looking the opposite way, and blaming the victims, is undermining everything that we've long claimed we are.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:21 (UTC)The problem has to be tackled head-on. And in order to do that, first we have to recognize it as a problem. And in order to do THAT, first we'll have to name things with their real names, as opposed to twisting ourselves into all sorts of pretzels to avoid taking responsibility.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 11:09 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 11:47 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:04 (UTC)I was characterising the idea that helping folk is somehow politically correct, and therefore worthy of criticism being lazy. And I think the advice given for women to keep their distance was neither politically correct, nor any other kind of correct. It is manifestly excusing criminal action, and therefore complicit in such action, and should be sanctioned accordingly.
If folk bite the hand that feeds them, they can expect to remain unfed from then on.
It is not politically correct to tell women that it is their fault that they have been assaulted. It is not good manners, it is not courteous, it is not noble, and above all it uses the language of the oppressor. I thought I had made that plain.
But I also thought I had made it plain that the dog-whistle political posturing which leads everyone to brand any action with which they disagree "politically correct" is lazy.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:08 (UTC)Call me lazy all you want. This is an outrage, and it has been tolerated for political reasons far too long.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:11 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:22 (UTC)Because the authorities in Germany are hamstrung by Germany's history. That this should still be the case seventy years after the end of the War is unfortunate, but the elephant in the room happens to be a mummified corpse dressed in red, black, and white and covered in Hindu symbols. But the same thing happened in Rotherham in the UK. A bunch of folk decided not to prosecute child-exploiters for fear of inciting racism: to me that is criminal. But so is racism. As far as I'm concerned we should prosecute the whole damn bunch.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:28 (UTC)Hence, my political correctness sentiment. The authorities in Germany are prepared to bend over backwards to avoid being accused of repeating Hitler's schtick - even if that's to their detriment.
This is impeding Germany's ability to tackle real problems in a real way. It'll keep having its arms tied as long as it remains hostage to its own guilt.
I'm prepared to concede that we might be interpreting the term political correctness in different ways. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for me it means going to extremes to avoid offending any group of people, mostly for emotional reasons and due to large historical baggage weighing on one's back - and often doing it to one's own detriment. Am I close? Because if I am, then what Germany has been doing is exactly that.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:43 (UTC)Germany is still trying to atone for guilt. What they may see as penance has nothing to do with treating people properly especially if they allow some people to mistreat others for spurious cultural reasons.
Hit them hard with the law. And hit the racists hard with the same law. The law should protect everyone: black, white, male, female, straight, or LBGT, indigene or immigrant.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 15:54 (UTC)Political correctness (or PC for short) means using words or behavior which will not offend any group of people.
Yeah, I've yet to see how hard they'll be hit with the law. I can wait.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 16:06 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 19:13 (UTC)I don't think those assaulters give a flying fuck about correctness or incorrectness, political or not.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 19:47 (UTC)And where has that idea been expressed here?
Again, how would you characterize the idea that women should accommodate the sensibilities of men by trying to avoid them on the street, lest they entice them into sexual action in some way? Aren't we noticing how easily we're adopting Wahhabi principles into our societies for the sake of making these people feel more comfortable? Whose rights are more important now - those of the refugees, or those of our own citizens? Because it's not like these two don't happen to be in conflict in cases like these, is it.
You recommended Wikipedia for a definition of PC. Here's what it says:
"language, policies, or measures which are intended not to offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society; in pejorative usage, those who use the term are generally implying that these policies are excessive"
The language and policies that we've seen thus far from the German police and the mayors of the affected cities have been excessively lenient regarding the perpetrators - all sorts of excuses and ridiculous "recommendations" have been sought in order to make their crimes look not as serious as they've actually been. As if that would make the issue go away in some magical way.
This is a disgrace. In fact, it's not the actions of those animals that are eroding the very foundations of our societies - it is our amazingly excessive readiness to abandon all our principles for the sake of appearing tolerant. Which in fact is the exact definition of PC.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 19:53 (UTC)What we've consistently seen from them is selective, faux tolerance, which has mostly served their own interests under the pretense of following some "principles". Those same principles that the politicians who've been most vocal advocating, are now the first to shit upon. The mayor of Cologne being the first example that comes to mind.
(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 11:20 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 13:48 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 16:42 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 19:17 (UTC)Have some patience, is all I am saying. The whole machine will get into rhythm. The authorities will come up with the optimal response to this situation eventually - and if it does not, the public will correct them.
Having a Hitler is the easier option, I know. And the self-destructive one.
(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 07:43 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 08:03 (UTC)You see, this is exactly why the current approach is failing - because we fail to understand where these people are coming from. And where they come from, the only incentive that's fully understood is the stick. Even Aydah Ozoguz herself has said it:
“This isn’t about cultural misunderstanding but about extreme wrongdoing. You can’t respond to this with integration courses, but only with punishment and if necessary deportation.”
She must know. Her parents came exactly where these new migrants are coming from.
(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 08:06 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 08:08 (UTC)"They're doing what should've been done a long time ago"
Exactly. Europe was shockingly unprepared for a thing everyone knew very well was coming. This proneness to blissful oblivion is self-destructive.
(no subject)
Date: 29/1/16 20:07 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 07:34 (UTC)Then, when things inevitably got uncovered and the whole story unraveled, things got really ridiculous. The mayor of Cologne advised German women to start moving around in packs (or herds?) as if they're cattle, keep a low profile by not wearing enticing clothes that could lure horny foreign men, keep those men at a distance (as if those men can't cover that distance in a hearbeat), and get to bed early. She came just short of saying they should also cover their heads. While her statements might seem a bit extreme, in fact all evidence points to her case being just the tip of a huge iceberg of misunderstood tolerance (some have called tolerance brought to extremes political correctness).
And this is the society the rest of us Europeans are supposed to look up to.
Stay classy, Germany.
(no subject)
Date: 30/1/16 22:44 (UTC)