"Actual Violence"
11/7/14 20:56![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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talkpoliticsSome of you might remember something I posted four years ago about right wing thug Mike Vanderboegh and his blog call for loyal patriots to smash the windows of Democratic Party Offices. The result -- surprise surprise! -- was the smashing of windows in several Democratic Party Offices. Mr. Vanderboegh opined that he wasn't promoting "actual violence." “How ambiguous is it if I say break windows? Am I saying kill people, absolutely not,” he said.
As I pointed out, the comments section on his blog didn't exactly jibe with his insistence that, oh mercy no, he wasn't talking about KILLING people. They included:
“Today it was bricks, tomorrow it will be ???? The fuse has been lit.”
“We need to track these highly respectable representatives (cough) down to their residences. Where we can then present them a Hallmark card (cough) kindly requesting they consider the Contitution when they vote.. Rocks and bricks are optional but torchs, pitch forks, tar and feathers are encouraged!!”
“As we know, our society has its roots in broken windows - not to mention tar-and-feathers (always horrible, often fatal) and bullets!”
“I wonder if the brain dead socialist in Washington would get the idea if it happened a lot more often. Would a wrist rocket and some ball bearings help get the idea across?”
“I bought a pistol belt and load bearing harness at the Army/Navy surplus store today. Haven't worn one since 1981. Fits real nice.”
“Good thing 223 ammo is still cheep and available. just bought another 1000 rds for 'target' pratice. these clowns are the best gun and ammo salesman in the world.”
“4" PVC Pipe End Cap Portable Compressed Air Tank Hose Pipe Fittings Valve Expanding Foam for Sabot Brick Paint, Scope, Laser Rangefinder, and compensator optional. Use of above parts left to the imagination of the reader.”
“They're all whining about bricks...... Just wait until it turns to bullets.”
I was assured by Sandwich warrior that what ol' Mike REALLY meant was not "do what we say, or we'll kill you," but "leave us alone or we'll kill you." "Leave us alone," meaning, "don't vote for or pass any legislation we dislike."
The old dear is in the news again, and that bit about "absolutely not" advocating killing people...? Well, let's just say Mr. Mike has recently confirmed pretty much what a lot of us already know about what "Open Carry" is really all about. While making a speech at an Open Carry Rally he made the following comments:
...“We like to think that all our fellow Americans, even those who plainly state that they are committed to stealing our liberty and our property and attempting to control our very lives, are merely suffering from differences of opinion that can be overcome by the right mix of persuasion or electoral politics,” Vanderboegh said.
“Yet how many of us have tried such methods with every fiber of our being and fallen short?” he continued. “Not because we were wrong, but because those of the other side were impervious to such arguments, to such tactics, for they believe completely in their right to their appetites for our liberty, our property, and our lives with all the religious fervor of a pagan worship of naked power wrapped in a catechism of lies."
These "fellow Americans" who have been unaccountably unconvinced by his earlier "arguments" of hurling bricks through windows, are therefore, he told the crowd, “domestic enemies of the Constitution,” and as such we need to told:
"that failing all other appeals to peaceful means, that the founders’ solution to such tyranny is still available, still potent, and still waiting, for when democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizenry still gets to vote.”
i.e. "be CONVINCED by our arguments, dammit, or we'll shoot you."
I wonder what rationalizations I'll hear from certain quarters if one day one of these maniacs opens fire with his "bullets/votes" on a Democratic Politician -- or just a Democratic voter.
As I pointed out, the comments section on his blog didn't exactly jibe with his insistence that, oh mercy no, he wasn't talking about KILLING people. They included:
“Today it was bricks, tomorrow it will be ???? The fuse has been lit.”
“We need to track these highly respectable representatives (cough) down to their residences. Where we can then present them a Hallmark card (cough) kindly requesting they consider the Contitution when they vote.. Rocks and bricks are optional but torchs, pitch forks, tar and feathers are encouraged!!”
“As we know, our society has its roots in broken windows - not to mention tar-and-feathers (always horrible, often fatal) and bullets!”
“I wonder if the brain dead socialist in Washington would get the idea if it happened a lot more often. Would a wrist rocket and some ball bearings help get the idea across?”
“I bought a pistol belt and load bearing harness at the Army/Navy surplus store today. Haven't worn one since 1981. Fits real nice.”
“Good thing 223 ammo is still cheep and available. just bought another 1000 rds for 'target' pratice. these clowns are the best gun and ammo salesman in the world.”
“4" PVC Pipe End Cap Portable Compressed Air Tank Hose Pipe Fittings Valve Expanding Foam for Sabot Brick Paint, Scope, Laser Rangefinder, and compensator optional. Use of above parts left to the imagination of the reader.”
“They're all whining about bricks...... Just wait until it turns to bullets.”
I was assured by Sandwich warrior that what ol' Mike REALLY meant was not "do what we say, or we'll kill you," but "leave us alone or we'll kill you." "Leave us alone," meaning, "don't vote for or pass any legislation we dislike."
The old dear is in the news again, and that bit about "absolutely not" advocating killing people...? Well, let's just say Mr. Mike has recently confirmed pretty much what a lot of us already know about what "Open Carry" is really all about. While making a speech at an Open Carry Rally he made the following comments:
...“We like to think that all our fellow Americans, even those who plainly state that they are committed to stealing our liberty and our property and attempting to control our very lives, are merely suffering from differences of opinion that can be overcome by the right mix of persuasion or electoral politics,” Vanderboegh said.
“Yet how many of us have tried such methods with every fiber of our being and fallen short?” he continued. “Not because we were wrong, but because those of the other side were impervious to such arguments, to such tactics, for they believe completely in their right to their appetites for our liberty, our property, and our lives with all the religious fervor of a pagan worship of naked power wrapped in a catechism of lies."
These "fellow Americans" who have been unaccountably unconvinced by his earlier "arguments" of hurling bricks through windows, are therefore, he told the crowd, “domestic enemies of the Constitution,” and as such we need to told:
"that failing all other appeals to peaceful means, that the founders’ solution to such tyranny is still available, still potent, and still waiting, for when democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizenry still gets to vote.”
i.e. "be CONVINCED by our arguments, dammit, or we'll shoot you."
I wonder what rationalizations I'll hear from certain quarters if one day one of these maniacs opens fire with his "bullets/votes" on a Democratic Politician -- or just a Democratic voter.
(no subject)
Date: 13/7/14 21:22 (UTC)Jeff, doesn't it bother you that the only way you can argue here is by pretending the English language doesn't work the way most English speakers use it?
(no subject)
Date: 13/7/14 21:27 (UTC)I don't know. Let's test it - are you willing to admit that your concerns here are about rare situations that does not appear to show any real relationship with the language you're concerned with?
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 00:23 (UTC)It's pretty dishonest.
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 11:48 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 21:53 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 21:55 (UTC)I do my best to answer whatever questions are posed to me, and I'm under no obligation to answer ones that are clearly distortive in nature.
I have already dealt with your bizarre use of the term "rare" by applying it to a real-world situation.
Indeed you have. I don't know why you think it helped you, though.
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 22:07 (UTC)There is nothing "distortive" in asking you what you have read on the subject being discussed.
bdj: Indeed you have. I don't know why you think it helped you, though.
Then by all means, address that example and show it how it hurt my case.
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 22:14 (UTC)You took things that were considered somewhat rare and said "hey, since this somewhat rare thing is something to prepare against, so too are these." Then we find that the things you're concerned about basically never happen, statistically speaking. So why should we even be concerned?
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 22:40 (UTC)So since "statistically speaking," muggings never happen, we should not be concerned about it or take precautions when there is a series of those "statistically non-existent muggings" in a neighborhood?
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 22:43 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 22:45 (UTC)If right wing violence becomes that frequent, what do you think is likely to happen to political freedom in this country?
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 22:49 (UTC)The overall robbery rate was 119 per 100k (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/robberymain) in 2010. Think "right wing violence" that's driven by violent political rhetoric even comes close to what would be considered muggings in that data?
If right wing violence becomes that frequent, what do you think is likely to happen to political freedom in this country?
It won't, don't worry.
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 22:55 (UTC)Hell, right wing violence against abortion providers has risen to the point where clinics have to take strong security measures, clinic workers keep their addresses secret, and doctors sometimes come to work in bullet proof vests.
What do you think the effect on political speech and activism is likely to be if right wing violence in general rises to that level?
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 23:40 (UTC)It's like asking what will happen when the unicorns finally defeat the Martians and take over this quadrant. Not happening.
Hell, right wing violence against abortion providers has risen to the point where clinics have to take strong security measures, clinic workers keep their addresses secret, and doctors sometimes come to work in bullet proof vests.
Perception of risk does not always result in rational responses. Much like there is no general risk of right wing violence attributed to rhetoric, there is no specific risk to abortion providers that would be worthy of that response.
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 23:16 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 23:21 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 15/7/14 06:31 (UTC)Not sure what you meant needs to stop.
(no subject)
Date: 14/7/14 23:41 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 15/7/14 06:32 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 15/7/14 11:29 (UTC)