Gun Facts

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Just to inject some facts into this debate:

• 
  
• "Gun Control Facts." By James D. Agresti and Reid K. Smith. Just Facts, September 13, 2010. Revised 12/28/12.
  
• 9 Must-See Gun Control Statistics
  
• Twelve facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States
  
• FBI UCR Murder Victims by Weapon 2006-2010
  
• CDC Leading causes of death 2009
  
• Top 5 causes of accidental death in the U.S.
  

I am not taking a position in this post, this is just for people to inform themselves, analyze the facts, and come to a logical conclusion, rather than listen to the media bloviate about the subject.

I don't need to take a position in this post. People need to see the facts and talk about the facts. My opinion on these facts will come out in the comments.

To respond to some of the comments in the deleted post, these facts are not intended to make a coherent point. That is the point of the post. There are a lot of facts out there and they don't all agree or line up easily. Opinion makers pick and choose which ones they want to use to "prove" their opinion and don't tell you about the other ones. I'd prefer to give you all the facts and then we can have a complete and logical discussion rather than an emotional one based on partial information (or sometimes outright lies). Feel free to submit some more facts that you have access to. These items were not picked based on anything other than that they are statistics and facts. I can guarantee you that they are not all biased one particular way, and if you actually read them, you'll see that. If you want to call the FBI or the CDC biased or bullshit, take that up with them.

Also, don't focus entirely on the picture. That is just one item, not the point of the post.

Comments

[papasha-mueller.livejournal.com]

"Das ist Bullshit."

"Tobacco use" - where this fugure comes from? Ill imagination? Dirty ass? Philip Morris Reporters Free Lunch?

[dreadfulpenny81.livejournal.com]

Nope. World Health Organization and reported in JAMA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_preventable_causes_of_death#Leading_causes_in_the_United_States

Same stats I presented in comments on a previous post which I were told were fictitious.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Um, OK. So what is all this about? You're still reposting a lot of links, some of which undercut the very thesis you're trying to make, and you're expecting people to take it seriously?

As I said the last time, I like waffles. Who likes waffles? BTW, citing things that aren't homicide in attempts to prove a point against particular types of homicide is like going into a thread about tax issues and talking about Caesar and psychiatry. Or as Bugs Bunny would have put it, you should have taken another turn at Albuquerque.

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

Yes, but what sort of waffles? Blueberry waffles, burnt waffles, chocolate waffles, Brussesls waffles, Liège waffles, gaufres à la Flamande, Bergische waffles, Pandan waffles, brunost waffles, or classic waffles?

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

So you deleted the posts in order to delete all the comments but not actually "delete comments." It sends me in to fits of laughter when self-proclaimed libertarian types go in to super censoring any dissenting opinion mode.

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

Not true at all. The post was deleted by a mod, the moment they spotted it. The OP had previously been warned multiple times that this was going to happen (see my comment below for details).

[nairiporter.livejournal.com]

I don't need to take a position in this post

True, you don't necessarily have to. And yet, in that case you have to at least present the issue in your own words - which is why your previous version of the post was removed. Obviously it IS possible for you to comply with rule 8 as seen in the present version, which brings me to the unfortunate conclusion that you've deliberately bypassing it for a very long time. Which has brought us to the decision that the very next time you do it again (for the N-th time), you'll be stripped of the ability to create posts in a while, as previously warned (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1591325.html?thread=127967261#t127967261).

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

Quite frankly, I don't see what's compliant with rule 8 in this version, either. It's essentially "Here are my old links, I don't want to make a point, you do my homework; now discuss. Kthxbye". It's not discussing anything about the point it claims it's trying to make, instead it's entirely focused on how reliable the sources are. I call bullshit on this version too.

It's not just poor input, it's zero input, and it's a mockery of the audience. And as such, it won't start a real debate, instead it'll devolve into a macro-dump. So be it.

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

You spent so much time explaining what is not the point of the post, and still you've yet to make a coherent point and tell us what the point really is. It's still a link dump with no personal input from you, posing as "I don't want to contaminate the material with personal opinion" that we've all become so accustomed to, whenever you pretend to "write" anything.

Either make a point that's to be discussed, or you'll keep being served more mockery.

(frozen) (no subject)

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I will not spoon feed children.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

What IS your point anyway?

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

The point is simple. Someone urgently ban stairs, ladders, roofs and other high places! Because 24,792 people unintentionally fall to their death!

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

My opinion on these facts will come out in the comments.

BAHAHA! What a brilliant tactic. But we couldn't have expected otherwise from a self-proclaimed genius.

Oh, and...



I'm all ears about your "opinion" on these "facts" as the comments unfold.

[notmrgarrison.livejournal.com]

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

How can I not focus entirely on the picture? You're posting such an awesome picture, and now you're asking me not to focus entirely on said picture? Come on, I can't take my eyes away from that picture, it's such an awesome picture!

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

I know liberals have problems with self-control, but give it a try anyways.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Are you telling me I'm supposed to read 6 articles and then argue... something? You haven't even initiated a discussion, what am I supposed to be debating? Am I just to stare at the articles and eventually squeeze some conclusion out, that I'm supposed to share here and start debating with people for your pleasure?

Very well. Here's my conclusion. You're unhappy with one of the most fundamental requirements of this community, namely the necessity for personal input in posts. It's one of the very few things that distinguish this place from lots of others. Complying with that requirement usually doesn't require too much effort, but unfortunately you're so fiercely opposed to that requirement that you're ready to go to tremendous lengths to test its limits. Sometimes it works (like now), other times the mods decide enough is enough. Well congrats, you're currently the most elaborate troll on T_P. Does that make you happy?

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Except the picture

You're not supposed to focus on the picture

[airiefairie.livejournal.com]

I can guarantee you that they are not all biased one particular way

Being myself a journalist of some sorts, I am genuinely interested: how? How can you guarantee that?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Because several of them are contradictory, so they can't all be on the same side.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if I'm getting this right as you've not given much of a firm ground to step on for discussion, but if we're to entertain your link-dump for a while and try to squeeze an argument out of it, you seem to be alluding to the notion that guns kill less people than diseases, cars and drugs do. Am I close to what you're getting at?

If so, what conclusion does that lead us to? That all those other causes for death have a priority and should be addressed first, before addressing firearm homicides altogether? Or am I getting too far off? Because if I'm not, then this sort of reasoning doesn't make much sense to me, regardless of what my stance on gun control might or might not be. You could've probably opted for a more sensible argument to support your position?

[luvdovz.livejournal.com]

Apparently, there's a certain limit of the number of issues a society is supposed to be addressing at a time. Gun control can wait until all those other issues have been resolved.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

OK let's look at facts (which BTW are noticeably absent from many of your links).

So let's start with FBI murder stats:
Firearms 4X more likely to be used in homicide than the next weapon (knives) and twice as likely as all the others COMBINED.

CDC Leading cause of death:
Murders aren't a leading cause of death, thankfully. Using the top 4 (cancer, heart disease, stroke, respiratory failure) apparently the leading cause of death is old age.

Accidental deaths:
No source cited, but here's one from the CDC http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/acc-inj.htm.
However, accidental deaths aren't the issue as most gun related incidents are homicides.

Gun Control Facts:
Too long to analyze in depth. A look at many of the charts tries to prove causation between right-to-carry laws and a reduction in murder rates. However, the charts show nothing of the sort, they show a general reduction in homicides trending before enaction. The largest variable in murder rates are the number of males between the ages of 18 and 24. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/ageracesex.cfm

The chart:
Absolute rubbish. Numbers pulled out from one's browneye do not constitute facts.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

At least one person got some of the point.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

This post is horrible.

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Agreed, but this response made me lol

Just tell it like it is

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

The baseball bat thing is a myth (http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/baseballbats.asp).

[bikinisquad3000.livejournal.com]

I couldn't help notice the way this has morphed into the more carefully worded "violent crime" recently (in the graphic above also, even though it gives every impression you're supposed to read it as synonymous with "homicide"). I guess lying is bad, but being wildly misleading with technically accurate statements is just, like, whatever.

[napoleonofcrime.livejournal.com]

If we're arguing priorities, it seems to me that there are all ready copious restrictions on the use of tobacco, alcohol, other drugs, motor vehicles and medical care. People are screened from using these things by criteria like age, mental disposition, level of training, prior bad acts, and the like. Even the ladder people are killing themselves falling from has product safety standards.

I'm not particularly in favor of restricting the kinds of weapons available to the citizenry, but it looks like guns are the only thing on your list without a comprehensive screening process for would-be possessors.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Are you high? There's absolutely a screening process for buying a gun. Obviously, some people may not like what's being screened for, but there is absolutely a process and people are being screened.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

I am not taking a position in this post, this is just for people to inform themselves, analyze the facts, and come to a logical conclusion, rather than listen to the media bloviate about the subject.

Taking a position yourself is like the media bloviating?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Yes.

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

(My comment in the deleted post worked so well I'm going to repost it here.)

Well, that explains the legislation that continues to ban tobacco use in public; the push hospitals are on to re-examine medical care and more rigorously promote best practices; the continuing escalation of alcohol taxation and legislation regarding public intoxication; the streamlining of problematic roadways including lowering of speed limits and enforcement of dangerous driving; enforcement of more rigorous and effective chemical labeling; and the crackdown on addictions and the behavior they inflict. Pity we can't do anything about gravity.

Those last two, though. We really should look into doing something about those. Don't you agree? ;-)

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

And purpose of OSHA and other libertarian-dreaded regulations to prevent #3

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

First of all, no graph is going to take away the idea that a having a school full of children gun down is a bad thing that we would want to prevent. Gun deaths are not the large of death in the United States we all know that, but, along with curbing tobacco use and medical errors, we simply cannot ignore or shrug off the problems these mass public shootings have become.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Taking guns away from people who use them responsibly and legally is not a proper response to someone using them illegally and irresponsibly. It actually comes back to the concept of innocent until proven guilty. There are criminals who go free because we can't prove they're guilty because we'd rather have criminals be free than have an innocent man in jail, if possible. The same applies here. We'd rather have people's right to have a gun be protected than assume that they're going to use it wrongly.

[il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com]

tobacco use i believe - medical errors, i don't, because surely it's higher than that figure :{

[rimpala.livejournal.com]

Also, I hate to be that guy with the bad news

But everyone one of us is expected to die o.o

[foolsguinea.livejournal.com]

So you led with a fraudulent chart, deleted the post where you were told it was factually wrong, and now you repost it to give an apologia for it? e_e

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Cough (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1636154.html?thread=130948666#t130948666).

[kylinrouge.livejournal.com]

more apple fwitter?

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Your mood tag says you are angry.

Why are you angry?

[luzribeiro.livejournal.com]

Pst! I think they may've set 'angry' to be their default mood.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-19/american-gun-deaths-to-exceed-traffic-fatalities-by-2015.html

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Well, the chart is something, at least, although projections are obviously sheer guesswork, as we don't know the assumptions being used.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Percentage of gun advocacy groups that help victims of gun violence?