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talkpoliticsProfessor Richard Dawkins has said the he is ' A Cultural Christian'.
In a news story on the BBC website, he declared that he has no wish to see Christmas cancelled, or see Britain lose any part of it's Christian heritage. This may come as a surprise to some, but his website tends to direct its venom towards the more negative aspects of religious belief.
These include the Catholic Church's stance on child molesting priests, it's opposition to contraception, and its condemnation of gay people. Yet Protestant believers come in for criticism too. It isn't simply a belief in Adam and Eve that Dawkins criticises, it's the Old Testament's account of Joshua's conquests, the concept of Hell and the moral standards taught in the O.T. that also provoke his ire.
Well, my take on it is as follows -
the Jews didn't really do the conquest of Canaan like the Bible says,in fact they didn't conquer Canaan at all - Joshua's campaign was largely a propaganda exercise done in a later period;
the concept of Hell as a place of eternal torment rests upon misinterpretation and misunderstanding of certain Biblical passages, as well as a certain amount of Hellenistic influence;
the sexism, racism and homophobia are all there in the Torah, but the Jews themselves got over a lot of it before Jesus came along and finished the job.
If we were to teach History in school and pay more attention to events in the Levant around the Bronze Age, it would do a lot to dispel the negative influence that religious mythology still has on society. We can dump all that stuff and still have a version of Christianity that is different from Atheism. And, yes, I would be happy to explain the specifics in the comments - if I get any:)
In a news story on the BBC website, he declared that he has no wish to see Christmas cancelled, or see Britain lose any part of it's Christian heritage. This may come as a surprise to some, but his website tends to direct its venom towards the more negative aspects of religious belief.
These include the Catholic Church's stance on child molesting priests, it's opposition to contraception, and its condemnation of gay people. Yet Protestant believers come in for criticism too. It isn't simply a belief in Adam and Eve that Dawkins criticises, it's the Old Testament's account of Joshua's conquests, the concept of Hell and the moral standards taught in the O.T. that also provoke his ire.
Well, my take on it is as follows -
the Jews didn't really do the conquest of Canaan like the Bible says,in fact they didn't conquer Canaan at all - Joshua's campaign was largely a propaganda exercise done in a later period;
the concept of Hell as a place of eternal torment rests upon misinterpretation and misunderstanding of certain Biblical passages, as well as a certain amount of Hellenistic influence;
the sexism, racism and homophobia are all there in the Torah, but the Jews themselves got over a lot of it before Jesus came along and finished the job.
If we were to teach History in school and pay more attention to events in the Levant around the Bronze Age, it would do a lot to dispel the negative influence that religious mythology still has on society. We can dump all that stuff and still have a version of Christianity that is different from Atheism. And, yes, I would be happy to explain the specifics in the comments - if I get any:)
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 28/7/11 23:12 (UTC)Jesus was a historical character, but more importantly, He said
"The people of the nations have leaders who lord it over them , but you are not to be like that." he actually took a basin and towel and washed His disciples feet - and we have to understand the culture of the day to grasp the importance of what He did here. He took the task that He could have allocated to anyone else, a task considered only fit for the lowliest person in the room, and did it Himself.
He never said a word about Homosexuality, or the death penalty, or most of the issues that right wingers go on about.
Jesus was more about serving others and redeeming the lowliest in His society than about the rigid observance of the legal code that the Jews of his day set great store by.
He declared that 'all foods were clean', He healed a man on the Sabbath. It is hard to see him as a very Orthodox believer in the Law of Moses.
I cannot prove that Jesus was God Incarnate, but I believe that if there is such a thing as an all wise and benevolent Deity, then that deity, if they visited Earth in human form, would not be any different from Christ.
If Jesus was not God Incarnate, I can only ask 'who was He then?'
He genuinely cared about people - 'man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man'. And this is what the teachings of Christ are about, for me.
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 29/7/11 00:03 (UTC)1) there was no flood
2) there was a guy named Jesus
3) people should try to be good
Are you saying you believe there was a flood that covered the earth? or that there was no guy named Jesus? Or that people shouldn't try to be good?
What was I wrong about? Try to answer in three simple sentences. Don't blather on about foods and homosexuals and right-wingers and such. No one is raising these issues.
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 29/7/11 06:50 (UTC)Still, lets have a go....
Jesus, as God Incarnate, presents us with a much clearer picture of what God is really like, as opposed to the view of Him that we get in the Torah.
God in the Torah is much as Richard Dawkins website describes him 'the most unpleasant character in fiction'.
Jesus on the other hand, behaves in a way that is neither petty nor vindictive, and encourages us in practical ways to make life better for those around us, instead of a mere adherence to some very petty and arbitrary rules.
Hows that ?
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 29/7/11 13:04 (UTC)Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 29/7/11 20:14 (UTC)But there is little else in the Torah on Jesus. The Passover lamb, with its unbroken bones, is another allusion to Christ, but this is about all I can come up with.
But I would be interested in your take on this.
See, I have problems with the Apostles not picking up on Daniel's 70 weeks of years - I mean , why don't they put that front and centre in the Gospels?
Instead, we have a Bethlehem birthday ( didn't the prophet mean the clan and not the town ?)
The flight into Egypt - hard to fit into Lukes narrative and Micah 5:2 , cited in support is really about the Exodus and has been quote mined.
Then we have the 14 generations in Matthew, where the Gospel writer does a bit of creative accountancy with the figures and leaves names out that don't fit the pattern.
Yes, I do think that God was far better than the way the Hebrews portrayed Him in the first few books of the Bible, but I am at a loss to explain His choice of PR people...
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 29/7/11 20:15 (UTC)So you disagree with Jesus on this.
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 29/7/11 21:43 (UTC)I think my reaction, had I been among the disciples would be to say to Him afterwards "Where did Moses talk about you Lord, apart from the bit about 'the prophet that will come after me' ?"
Seriously, if this were a question in an R E exam, I don't think I could write more that a short paragraph in answer. Which is worrying, if you know what I am usually like.
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 29/7/11 21:55 (UTC)I think you are generally clueless about Jesus. This would not be so bad, if it weren't for the fact that you make all kinds of absurd claims of knowledge.
I'll help you, though. Try reading the third chapter of John's gospel. Tell me what you find there.
Which is worrying, if you know what I am usually like.
Yes, you should indeed worry about both disbelieving and not comprehending the words of Jesus.
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 29/7/11 22:55 (UTC)What I have said you will find, you will find.
What I have said may be true, may indeed be true.
I question you use of the word ' absurd for this eason. however, it is for you to decide.
In the third chapter that you cite, I found a reference to a serpent that Moses lifted up in the wilderness. Like the Passover lamb , it would become meaningful after His death, but no so helpful in spotting the Messiah when He was alive.
As I have said before, I see no problem in believing that Jesus was a historical figure, and I would even go so far as to say that if you wish to accept a non physical entity that is outside Time and space as we know it entering our time and space, then Jesus becoming God Incarnate is not impossible.
John also says a lot here about other things.
Verse 13 - I was under the impression that Elijah was taken up into heaven on a fiery chariot. Apparently not!
Is Christ here hinting that he knows that Elijah was merely a legend, not a fact? Or is it that Elijah was simply taken some place in the Chariot and set down in another land?
Verse 17 is also significant, I feel. But what do you say on this?
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 30/7/11 00:42 (UTC)It would be good if you focused on this, rather than blathering on and on about absolutely nothing.
Re: 'Crap' theology?
Date: 30/7/11 06:22 (UTC)And there is a good deal. I see quite a bit of material, some pointing directly to Christ, and some not.
Actually, what we have so far is a couple of verses - both pointing to the manner of his death, and a single verse pointing to a prophet. From the entire Torah. OK, Moses did write about Him, but not as much as I would have imagined, going on what He says to the Pharisees.
Again , I say that I find it remarkable that Matthew, writing for the Jews, ignores this as he ignores Daniel and focusses instead on his own verses in support of Jesus as Messiah.
I will be sending a private message to you, as you may wish to continue this conversation away from this forum. Thank you for what you have revealed so far.
rather than blathering on and on about absolutely nothing.
As far as I am concerned, I was talking about the contents of a chapter in John's Gospel. And it raised a serious question. Did Jesus hint at something concerning Elijah in verse 13?