Should we bring back the Lash?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Advocate corporal punishment and most people will scoff or recoil in horror. "What do you take us for? Barbarians?" seems to be the most common response. and yet, thanks to the "War on Drugs" and mandatory sentancing the US imprisons more citizens per capita than any other country in the western world. One month ago the US Supreme Court ruled that conditions in California prisons were unconstitutional, specifically that the prevalence overcrowding coupled with shoddy/non-existant medical treatment constitued cruel and unusual punishment. Furthermore the prevalence of rape in american prisons has been declared a humanitarian crisis by numerous watchdog groups.

It's a simple question really.

If given the choice between 10 years in a California prison or 10 lashes in the public square which would you choose?

Personally I'd choose the whip.


PS:
The above morally-framed argument completely ignores the economic incentive for corporal punishment, you don't have to spend ____ years feeding and housing a flogged prisoner and you do not loose a potentialy valuable member of the workforce. Though if the former is your chief concern we could just bring back chain gangs.

Comments

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

Actually the Sociopaths in jail are also generally idiots as well since only a very small minority of them ever goes to jail, They are far more likely to end up in a corporate boardroom than a prison cell.

Remember, a sociopath is not someone who is unaware of the difference between right and wrong, it is someone who just doesn't care about the difference, still the overwhelming majority of them are plenty smart enough to recognize societies expectations and play (just barely) within the rules.

For a pardody of Tolkien rendered with stick figures OOTS is surprisingly deep

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html)

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

thanks, yeah, I know enough about sociopathy. what makes you so sure only a minority of them are in jail? you really think sociopaths are somehow more likely to be smart enough to avoid jail? the intelligence level of sociopaths does not deviate from the norm. Just as many stupid sociopaths are non-sociopaths. just as many smart ones too.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

besides which the POINT is that you cannot simply open up prison en masse; some people need to be kept away from society for the good of the community. If you think sociopaths inhabit board rooms then clearly we need to do more to root them out and get them incarcerated.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

[Dr.] Stout says that as many as 4% of the population are conscienceless sociopaths who have no empathy or affectionate feelings for humans or animals. As Stout (The Myth of Sanity) explains, a sociopath is defined as someone who displays at least three of seven distinguishing characteristics, such as deceitfulness, impulsivity and a lack of remorse. Such people often have a superficial charm, which they exercise ruthlessly in order to get what they want. (http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/076791581X)

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

yes, aprox 4% of the gen pop could probably be classified as sociopathic. However, according to dr Robert Hare, aprox 20% of the prison population could be classified as sociopathic.

Clearly sociopaths are more common in prison than general population.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

US Population = 307 million.

4% of US Population = 12.28 Million sociopaths.


US Prison Population = 2.2 Million

20% of US Prison population = 0.44 Million

12.28 - 0.44 = 11.84 Million sociopaths walking the streets.

Yes, they are more common in prison but there aren't enough of them in prison at any one time to appreciably change the percentage of the non incarcerated population that is a Sociopath.

Further, even though the most recent numbers I can find are from 2001, they show than 5.6% of Americans go to jail at some point in their lives so lets up that to a round 6% and and keep the 20% figure you cited as the percentage of sociopaths. This would imply that only around 4 million of the 12 million sociopaths living in America at any one time ever serves a day in jail

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

my point was that sociopaths are represented in greater numbers in prison population. Yes, there are lots of them walking around. There are lots of every "type" walking around and at 4% per gen pop its clear that sociopaths - while arguably great in raw numbers - are not a teeming mass that is overrepresented in gen pop much less anywhere in particular. I get that statistical analysis is tough -most people struggle with it- but try to get what I'm saying here: sociopaths are no more likely to get away with criminal behavior than anyone else. Because sociopaths can be stupid just like everyone else. Because sociopaths have a tendency to overestimate their own conning ability (as you pointed out most people do that but most people aren't engaging in criminal behavior) thus they are in fact MORE likely to get caught and go to prison. That does not mean there aren't sociopaths walking around in gen pop or corporate boardrooms or whatever, but it does mean that there are plenty of them in prison. More so than gen pop. get it?

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

and Hare's statistic is based on prison population, not conviction/sentencing records. That is, he's talking about sociopaths serving time. if he had included historical records, the percentage would have been even higher.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

One does not need to be terribly smart to know that robbing someone, assaulting someone, defrauding someone, or killing someone is going to land you in jail if you get caught.

An IQ as low as 85 is more than sufficient to come to this conclusion. This does not mean they internalize the reason why those actions are wrong, just that they recognize that they will be prosecuted and imprisoned if they are caught doing them.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

let me spell this out for you:
1. just because someone is smart enough to know getting caught is a bad idea doesn't mean they are smart enough to properly figure out HOW not to get caught.
2. part of a sociopath's psyche is grandiousity; they believe they are "special" and above the rules.
3. they also typically believe they are smarter than everyone else when oftentimes they are only average. Thus they carry the adolescent immortality phase into adulthood.
4. the demographics of sociopathy is normative
5. the emergence of sociopathy has no predictors although certain signs in early childhood can point to a possibility
6. the is absolutely no cure, no treatment and no therapy that affects sociopathy


clearly you haven't the slightest understanding of sociopathy in society

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

1) True, however they can be plenty smart enough to take the path of least resistance and pursue other paths to achieve their goals.
2) Yes, as do most corporate executives, politicians, athletes, actors, musicians, writers, internet blog commenters, and more than a handful of police.
3) Nearly everyone believes this, I can't find the study immediately but there was one done recently where the people on average estimated themselves to have an IQ of 120. The belief that you are smarter than everyone else is completely unrelated to the development of a conscience.
4) Um ok, this really doesn't say anything for or against my point nor does it confirm or refute anything I have said.
5) Ditto
6) Ditto