Should we bring back the Lash?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Advocate corporal punishment and most people will scoff or recoil in horror. "What do you take us for? Barbarians?" seems to be the most common response. and yet, thanks to the "War on Drugs" and mandatory sentancing the US imprisons more citizens per capita than any other country in the western world. One month ago the US Supreme Court ruled that conditions in California prisons were unconstitutional, specifically that the prevalence overcrowding coupled with shoddy/non-existant medical treatment constitued cruel and unusual punishment. Furthermore the prevalence of rape in american prisons has been declared a humanitarian crisis by numerous watchdog groups.

It's a simple question really.

If given the choice between 10 years in a California prison or 10 lashes in the public square which would you choose?

Personally I'd choose the whip.


PS:
The above morally-framed argument completely ignores the economic incentive for corporal punishment, you don't have to spend ____ years feeding and housing a flogged prisoner and you do not loose a potentialy valuable member of the workforce. Though if the former is your chief concern we could just bring back chain gangs.

Comments

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I think any question predicated upon the idea of choosing one's punishment is suspect.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Well of course it is, but if the "barbaric" punishment is preferable to the "civilized" one what does that say about civilization?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Sure biut isn't that a bit rash?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

That's not torture that's motivation ;)

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

I posted on this a while ago. It is an interesting question. I think it says a lot more about the poor state of our prison system and the dysfunctional way we incarcerate people than it does about the legitimacy of corporal punishment.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

^ This is true ^

[hey-its-michael.livejournal.com]

If those are the only options we have, our society is screwed.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Yup ;)

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Definitely the whip. Does anyone really need to think about this?

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

its a no-brainer, I agree.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

what if it was a lash per day for 10 years or prison for 10 years?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

That might change my mind. As with anything it comes down to cost vs. benefit, what i'm trying to highlight is that our current prison system is suffiecently messed up that corporal punishment (the punishment it was designed to replace) is in many ways preferable.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

I would choose the lash, which to my mind, is far less barbaric than prison r*pe, far less cruel and unusual and, as you have pointed out, far less expensive. Chain gangs are probably a good idea as well.

[http://users.livejournal.com/-wanderer-/]

Chain gangs don't really ameliorate any of the problems of incarceration that the OP brought up though, while whipping ostensibly would....

[dwer.livejournal.com]

it's fundamentally the wrong question.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Is it?

Would you like to propose an alternative?

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

Or you know, maybe we could grow up and recognize that threat of punishment has never deterred a crime in history because the criminals just won't believe they'll get caught or don't have any better alternatives anyway.

A shift to a justice system that focuses on restitution would be far more effective

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

Worse yet, with truly antisocial types, the threat of punishment becomes a MOTIVATOR rather than a deterrent (as some research actually indicates might be the case in states which allow the death penalty), because if there's a commonality to human nature, it's the shitheads who will do something precisely because they're being threatened with abuse if they do so, because human beings have a bottomless capacity for self-destructive SPITE.

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

Interesting post, very interesting. When you pose your original question to me, I would definitely answer the same: I'd take the whip.

At any rate, though, the incarceration system is messed up. Legalizing drugs is just one step we really ought to take, and I hope the outlook for that isn't as bleak as some implied. We need to be realistic about giving out sentences and I think seeking out alternative forms of justice is a good idea, though I don't know what alternative forms I would suggest.

The comment about the chain gang is also interesting. I don't advocate that system necessarily, but I think it's a good idea to find /some/ way for those in jail to work for their room and board, for a number of reasons. One is that it's a huge burden on the system if they get a free lunch. Two, it seems awfully backwards to /absolve/ people of responsibility when they go to jail. Rather, we should emphasize the importance of it, and jail should not be in any way a reward. If you were free you'd have to work for your lunch. Why not do the same if you're in jail?

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

As much as I hate the degree to which we imprison our own populace, the fact that so many people would choose the whip proves that it's not sufficient punishment, and worse yet, you'd basically be breeding a class of criminals who would train themselves to be resistant to such punishment. And that's not even getting into the masochists.

If you want to deal with prison overcrowding, start by eliminating the bullshit mandatory minimum sentences for relatively minor offenders in our already-proven-to-be-a-failure "war on drugs." The reason we're building so many prisons is because somebody was a) just barely smart enough to recognize the reality that mandatory minimums for dumbasses who got caught with dime bags was turning prison into a goddamn revolving door for rapists, thieves and murders, and yet that same somebody was still b) fuckwitted enough not to resolve the root problem of the situation.

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Having huge numbers of healthy prisoners is good for business. This is USA's 21rst century's slave workforce. Nobody is intending on reducing prison overpopulation. That would be bad for business.

[paedraggaidin.livejournal.com]

As long as we bring back rum and sodomy along with it.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

YAY RUM AND SODOMY

[telemann.livejournal.com]

You mean lash right? Not the Roman-cat-of-nine-tails, EeeEeeK.

[paedraggaidin.livejournal.com]

*whip-cracking noise*

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

How about we just end the Drug War and call it good, eh?

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

From where I'm sitting, looks like Drugs won.

[malakh-abaddon.livejournal.com]

Why don't we just make people listen to Barney for several days while they are injected with mind altering drugs. Oh yeah, just kick my ass in the public square, call it a day. I promise I learned something, that being if I do the same thing, or anything again, don't get caught.

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

the problem is sociopathy. Many prisoners are idiots or people who were temporary idiots, if you prefer. But there are plenty of true sociopaths as well. We lock them up to get them away from society. Good thing we do. If its more "humane" to lock them up and take care of them for life, fine. But all the non-sociopaths?

The problem is sifting through and figuring out who's the idiot and who's the real sociopath.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

There is testing now that is very accurate at determining psychopathy and sociopathy, now if we could only get elected officials to also receive that screening.

I agree with the 'temporary idiots' being fairly high, I know a few of these people and it's more impulse control problems than malice.

The whip isn't an option

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

There's no better time then to be in the American prison business. Did you know American prisons house more "guests" then China? And China has five times the population. China simply isn't living up to it's full potential. USA has better laws, better cops, tougher sentences, and makes better use of inmates time while in prison.

IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom's, Revlon, Macy's, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, etc. all contract prison labour in the 37 states that allow it.

Now that crime is down, prison sentences will have to be longer to meet the demand of these contracts, and they already are. The California 3 strikes law was a real help to keep crime down, but fortunately we get to lock them up and make them productive members of society again as they work right inside the jails.

This is the ideal labourforce. It's domestic (not made in Taiwan), not unionized, fewer sick days, no personal days, never late, never complains (like who cares if they do?) and did I mention cheap? Holy shit these guys work for less then then kids we have chained up out in international waters. CHEAP!

Did you say some of these prisoners were raped? Oh no! Do they need to take some time off... LOL, I'm just joking with you. Nobody gives a shit about these pussies. They're friggin' criminals! Who gives a rats ass?

Corporal punishment isn't making a cheap labour force so it just isn't going to work. The future, just like the past, will have an economy based on slave cheap ethnic labour.

Re: The whip isn't an option

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

"makes better use of inmates time while in prison"

No frigging way man, the Chinese are using their prisoners to farm gold in Azeroth (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/05/26/chinese-prisoners-forced-play-world-warcraft-detainee-says/), we just make ours do boring shit like man phone banks and assemble useless shit nobody really wants.

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

The above morally-framed argument completely ignores the economic incentive for corporal punishment, you don't have to spend ____ years feeding and housing a flogged prisoner and you do not loose a potentialy valuable member of the workforce.

Not to mention the reality show revenues.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1051442.html?thread=83712050#t83712050

[primroseburrows.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I get nervous about "options" offered by people in power. And it's not just flogging that's suspect, it's the culture of flogging--most of the countries that allow judicial corporal punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_corporal_punishment) aren't exactly known for their outstanding human rights status. There's just so many ways that this kind of punishment can be abused. And yes, the prison system/culture is corrupt and abusive as well, but adding another way for the powerful to inflict suffering on the powerless doesn't strike me as an improvement. And yeah, I know it sounds idealistic, but instead of just throwing another form of institutional abuse at the problem, why don't we try to get at the problems of why prisons are so overcrowded? Stuff like poverty, abuse, mental illness, addiction, yadda.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

"Stuff like poverty, abuse, mental illness, addiction, yadda."

Or we could focus on the REAL problem which is excessive government regulation and control over the private sphere criminalizing actions which harm no one.

[zeitgeistic.livejournal.com]

I don't know about a public square flogging, but I am in favor of keeping your children in line with a spanking, when appropriate. I don't even have kids, but I've met some parents who love to volunteer that I must not spank them when I do have them, or else I'll be an abusive parent. Americans are too soft on our kids. Any MTV reality tv series will show that.

My Super Sweet Sixteen (http://www.mtv.com/shows/sweet_16/series.jhtml), anyone?


(First time poster)

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Welcome to the Comm.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Should we bring back the Lash?


No.

Next question?

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Care to elaborate?

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

America has a crime problem because Americans have a criminal problem.

Why do people disrespect the law?

[paft.livejournal.com]

Depends on which class of criminal you're asking about.

Poor criminals? Often it's because they don't feel they have much of a stake in society to begin with.

Rich criminals? Often because they know they stand a good chance of getting away with it.

[root-fu.livejournal.com]

Protip: the lash will never come into favor unless politicians and corporations find a way to profit massively from it.

[http://users.livejournal.com/-wanderer-/]

I choose neither. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceegnWSENQ)