The War Continues...
8/5/11 02:31![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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talkpoliticsNo, not the one in Afghanistan, or anywhere else in the Middle East, I mean the one in Britain.
You think we are not at war - well let me tell you my side of the story, and how it's going on the frontlines right now.
The War is being fought between the Common People and the Social Elite. It probably began in 1066, when the Normans overthrew the Saxons at Hastings - but maybe that just made the two sides easeier to spot, as from that point on, the rulers and the ruled spoke a different language and had very different values and aims. I guess thiis is a good place for an LJ cut, so let's have one and continue.
Basically, the Normans felt that with the Saxon leaders being dead, the Normans could now do as they pleased and the Saxons would just do as they were told. But in spite of the vast advantages that winning the battle gave them , the Saxons fought on - politics in Britain became warfare by other means.
It was King John who gave us our first chance to hit back at the oppressors - he had made a mess of things and the Barons got together and drew up a Charter in 1215( The Magna Carta, to give it it's Latin name). It basically said that the King was to obey the law, just like everyone else. Oh, the barons wrote it with themselves in mind, but there was little to stop peasants getting in on the act too, after a while. the next big break came after Ssimon De Montford went to war - he had a paliament assembled, and also allowed the towns to be represented as well as the aristocracy. this meant that the burghers, or townsfolk, had a bit of a say on things, and how the realm was run, and this was in 1265.
Ok - they spoke for places on the map rather more than they did for the Common People, and they tended to be wealthy merchants rather than mud stained peasantry, but the Social Elite was beginning to lose it's grip on things. It still meant, however, that anyone who owned the land in one of these places had a seat in Parliament. More seriously, the places that sprang up in the Industrial revolution had no seat , and no voice, where settlements where everyone had left long ago were still sending representatives to parliament.
These places were known as ' Rotten boroughs'. the Most famous of which was 'Old Sarum ' in Wiltshire. because a bishop had a house there, once, the area was invited by Edward the II to send two representatives to parliament in the 13th century. But then the Bishop moved to salisbury, and this did not stop Old sarum sending two people along for centuries after the place lay in ruins. @Elections were held in a cornfield , consisting of candidates and voters carefully selected and bribed by the local landowner to do his bidding.
By contrast, Manchester did not have any representation at all, in spite of it being a large and inhabited town iin 1819. When a large crowd met in that year, to demand representation for the male townsfolk, they were attacked by troops on horseback weilding sabres, who charged and rode them down to defend the status quo. this event was known as 'The Peterloo Massacre'.
But Manchester was not the only place that saw conflict between the rulers nad the rules. One might also mention the Tollpuddle Martys, a group of men from Dorset who met and took an oath together, vowing that they would not work for less than an agreed rate for any local land owner.
For this audacious act, they were sentenced to transportation, and there was a public outcry that led to these man being freed. However, the Reform Act of 1832 did put an end to the "Rotten Boroughs", but we had to wait until 1848 before the Chartists arose - an audacious movement who had the gall to suggest that men who did not own land or propert, but had only their labour to seel, should also be allowed to vote!
Again , in spite of valiant attempts to ' keep them in their place' , the Chartists won the right for men over 21 to vote in elections alongside their social betters. But is was not until1872 that Secret ballots were made the norm . Up till then , voting was public and had to be declared, exposing anyone to the wrath of the factory bosses and the landlords if the latter didn't like the way the voting went.
And even then , electing an MP was not a simple matter- there were many different sytems by which members were chosen that varied from town to town. Some places sent more than one representative, universities also sent their own elected reps, quite independently of the town or city they were in.
Do you want to know when the Uk set up the present system of 'First Past the Post' and 'One Person, One Vote' being standardised? Go on - have a guess. David Cameron said recently that changing the present system would be ' unfair , it is wrong , and flies in the face of centuries of our history". so, go on take a guess. Somewhere back in the 1800s, when Queen victoria was on the throne, wouldn't you say? well, if you did, you are wrong. and so is David Cameron.
The Present system of FPTP and OPOV came in in ....
1950. That is correct. It is less than 70 yrs old. Not in my lifetime, but certainly in my Mother's , and she is still alive. That is how recent FPTP and OPOV is, and again, Cameron, like so many of the Social Elite before him is trying to re invent history to suit himself.
For the record, womenover 30, who were also of the property owning class were allowed to vote in 1918, but it wasn't until 1928 that women of all callsses voted on the same terms as men.
And even though working men and women had the vote, it was something else to be allowed to stand for election. British politics , before the First World War, was dominated by rich men who wanted reform and rich men who wanted to keep the status quo.
Between the Wars, working men had the idea that the working people needed a party that was all about their interests, not the idea of the rich people doing nice things on thier behalf if they felt like it.
So, the Conservatives saw the Liberals all but dissappear , only to be replaced by the Labour party as the opposition in Britain. And labour brought in The Welfare State, Trade Union Recognition , the 40 Hour Week, Nationalised Industries and many more programmes that benefitted the Common People.
After the 2nd World War, Labour swept to power, but the boom years did not last. once the oppressive burden of poverty was lifted, men grew idle and indolent Absenteeism , inefficiency and industrialstrife began to plague British industry, and production and people's living standards fell as a result.
Although the working man could vote in a general election in total secrecy, it ws different if he wanted to vote at a union meeting. if a Shop Steward or Convenor called for a strike, it was done on a 'show of hands' - and this meant that anyone who voted ' the wrong way ' was open to threats and intimiadation. Also, there was a Bloc Vote in the TUC - one union leader with 10,000 members was allowed to speak for all the members, even those who dissagreed with him on the issues. And of course, there was the 'Closed Shop'- you were not allowed to work in some places unless you had a Union Card, and the union could take it off you if you didn't toe the line.
Just as it was the barons who ran Medieval England in defiance of the king at times, it was the so called ' Union Barons' who dominated modern Britain and even defied the elected government.
And Just as the elite gave the Common People the Magna Carta, it was mageret thatcher who gave them Union Reforms. it was Thatcher who did away with Bloc Votes, Closed Shops and made the Unions take Secret Ballots - all of which was a blessing to the Common People in the face of the overmighty Union Overlords. This was in total contrast to Thatcher's campaign against the sick and the poor and the almost total destruction of Britains manufacturing base that was decimated, broken up and sold off cheap by her government.
But today, the fight still goes on, between the forces of Democracy and Fairness and the powerrs of Oppression, Exploitation and Privilege. between the Common people and the Social Elite.
First Past the Post is allowing New Labour, which is business freindly Thatcherism Lite, to get in and stay in power alongside the Conservatives. it cannot stop the BNP turfing the labourites out of barking , and means that the real progressives like the Green Party have actually been asked to refrain from standing " in case it split's the Labour Vote... "
FOR PITY'S SAKE , BRITAIN!
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DEFEAT FASCISM BY LEAVING THE JOB TO LABOUR UNDER FIRST PAST THE POST !!!
What we need now is new parties that can handle the new politics, we need a system that can handle more than a two horse race. the Labour Party , and the Tories don't use FPTP to elect their party leaders any more, they use proportional representation. And it is time the common people were allowed the same chace to use it too.
The fight for AV in Britain is over - the fight for STV is about to begin.
Another step forwards needs to be made, another battle must be fought against the forces of reactionary privilege.
We are wrong to assume that the entreprenurial people are the 'class enemy' - often they are people of humble backgrounds who have worked hard to develope their ideas and get their businesses off the ground. So long as they are prepared to offer good jobs and social benefits, they have a place in modern Britain. we must focus on what Governments do best and leave the entreprenuers to do what they do best under a well regulated market that allows them to operate under the rule of law and with the benefit of accessible Justice and a Free Press.
But the fight for STV will not be short, or easy. Will must be prepared for another long , hard fight if we are to gain what Britain needs and what the Common People deserve.
When i wrote about the Peterloo Massacre in one political community, someone said " I felt as if I was watching it all a movie."
Yes, the fight of the Common People down the years, it is a stirring tale, and Ii am proud that on occassions , that I have been a part of it. And make no mistake, it isn't over yet.
You think we are not at war - well let me tell you my side of the story, and how it's going on the frontlines right now.
The War is being fought between the Common People and the Social Elite. It probably began in 1066, when the Normans overthrew the Saxons at Hastings - but maybe that just made the two sides easeier to spot, as from that point on, the rulers and the ruled spoke a different language and had very different values and aims. I guess thiis is a good place for an LJ cut, so let's have one and continue.
Basically, the Normans felt that with the Saxon leaders being dead, the Normans could now do as they pleased and the Saxons would just do as they were told. But in spite of the vast advantages that winning the battle gave them , the Saxons fought on - politics in Britain became warfare by other means.
It was King John who gave us our first chance to hit back at the oppressors - he had made a mess of things and the Barons got together and drew up a Charter in 1215( The Magna Carta, to give it it's Latin name). It basically said that the King was to obey the law, just like everyone else. Oh, the barons wrote it with themselves in mind, but there was little to stop peasants getting in on the act too, after a while. the next big break came after Ssimon De Montford went to war - he had a paliament assembled, and also allowed the towns to be represented as well as the aristocracy. this meant that the burghers, or townsfolk, had a bit of a say on things, and how the realm was run, and this was in 1265.
Ok - they spoke for places on the map rather more than they did for the Common People, and they tended to be wealthy merchants rather than mud stained peasantry, but the Social Elite was beginning to lose it's grip on things. It still meant, however, that anyone who owned the land in one of these places had a seat in Parliament. More seriously, the places that sprang up in the Industrial revolution had no seat , and no voice, where settlements where everyone had left long ago were still sending representatives to parliament.
These places were known as ' Rotten boroughs'. the Most famous of which was 'Old Sarum ' in Wiltshire. because a bishop had a house there, once, the area was invited by Edward the II to send two representatives to parliament in the 13th century. But then the Bishop moved to salisbury, and this did not stop Old sarum sending two people along for centuries after the place lay in ruins. @Elections were held in a cornfield , consisting of candidates and voters carefully selected and bribed by the local landowner to do his bidding.
By contrast, Manchester did not have any representation at all, in spite of it being a large and inhabited town iin 1819. When a large crowd met in that year, to demand representation for the male townsfolk, they were attacked by troops on horseback weilding sabres, who charged and rode them down to defend the status quo. this event was known as 'The Peterloo Massacre'.
But Manchester was not the only place that saw conflict between the rulers nad the rules. One might also mention the Tollpuddle Martys, a group of men from Dorset who met and took an oath together, vowing that they would not work for less than an agreed rate for any local land owner.
For this audacious act, they were sentenced to transportation, and there was a public outcry that led to these man being freed. However, the Reform Act of 1832 did put an end to the "Rotten Boroughs", but we had to wait until 1848 before the Chartists arose - an audacious movement who had the gall to suggest that men who did not own land or propert, but had only their labour to seel, should also be allowed to vote!
Again , in spite of valiant attempts to ' keep them in their place' , the Chartists won the right for men over 21 to vote in elections alongside their social betters. But is was not until1872 that Secret ballots were made the norm . Up till then , voting was public and had to be declared, exposing anyone to the wrath of the factory bosses and the landlords if the latter didn't like the way the voting went.
And even then , electing an MP was not a simple matter- there were many different sytems by which members were chosen that varied from town to town. Some places sent more than one representative, universities also sent their own elected reps, quite independently of the town or city they were in.
Do you want to know when the Uk set up the present system of 'First Past the Post' and 'One Person, One Vote' being standardised? Go on - have a guess. David Cameron said recently that changing the present system would be ' unfair , it is wrong , and flies in the face of centuries of our history". so, go on take a guess. Somewhere back in the 1800s, when Queen victoria was on the throne, wouldn't you say? well, if you did, you are wrong. and so is David Cameron.
The Present system of FPTP and OPOV came in in ....
1950. That is correct. It is less than 70 yrs old. Not in my lifetime, but certainly in my Mother's , and she is still alive. That is how recent FPTP and OPOV is, and again, Cameron, like so many of the Social Elite before him is trying to re invent history to suit himself.
For the record, womenover 30, who were also of the property owning class were allowed to vote in 1918, but it wasn't until 1928 that women of all callsses voted on the same terms as men.
And even though working men and women had the vote, it was something else to be allowed to stand for election. British politics , before the First World War, was dominated by rich men who wanted reform and rich men who wanted to keep the status quo.
Between the Wars, working men had the idea that the working people needed a party that was all about their interests, not the idea of the rich people doing nice things on thier behalf if they felt like it.
So, the Conservatives saw the Liberals all but dissappear , only to be replaced by the Labour party as the opposition in Britain. And labour brought in The Welfare State, Trade Union Recognition , the 40 Hour Week, Nationalised Industries and many more programmes that benefitted the Common People.
After the 2nd World War, Labour swept to power, but the boom years did not last. once the oppressive burden of poverty was lifted, men grew idle and indolent Absenteeism , inefficiency and industrialstrife began to plague British industry, and production and people's living standards fell as a result.
Although the working man could vote in a general election in total secrecy, it ws different if he wanted to vote at a union meeting. if a Shop Steward or Convenor called for a strike, it was done on a 'show of hands' - and this meant that anyone who voted ' the wrong way ' was open to threats and intimiadation. Also, there was a Bloc Vote in the TUC - one union leader with 10,000 members was allowed to speak for all the members, even those who dissagreed with him on the issues. And of course, there was the 'Closed Shop'- you were not allowed to work in some places unless you had a Union Card, and the union could take it off you if you didn't toe the line.
Just as it was the barons who ran Medieval England in defiance of the king at times, it was the so called ' Union Barons' who dominated modern Britain and even defied the elected government.
And Just as the elite gave the Common People the Magna Carta, it was mageret thatcher who gave them Union Reforms. it was Thatcher who did away with Bloc Votes, Closed Shops and made the Unions take Secret Ballots - all of which was a blessing to the Common People in the face of the overmighty Union Overlords. This was in total contrast to Thatcher's campaign against the sick and the poor and the almost total destruction of Britains manufacturing base that was decimated, broken up and sold off cheap by her government.
But today, the fight still goes on, between the forces of Democracy and Fairness and the powerrs of Oppression, Exploitation and Privilege. between the Common people and the Social Elite.
First Past the Post is allowing New Labour, which is business freindly Thatcherism Lite, to get in and stay in power alongside the Conservatives. it cannot stop the BNP turfing the labourites out of barking , and means that the real progressives like the Green Party have actually been asked to refrain from standing " in case it split's the Labour Vote... "
FOR PITY'S SAKE , BRITAIN!
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DEFEAT FASCISM BY LEAVING THE JOB TO LABOUR UNDER FIRST PAST THE POST !!!
What we need now is new parties that can handle the new politics, we need a system that can handle more than a two horse race. the Labour Party , and the Tories don't use FPTP to elect their party leaders any more, they use proportional representation. And it is time the common people were allowed the same chace to use it too.
The fight for AV in Britain is over - the fight for STV is about to begin.
Another step forwards needs to be made, another battle must be fought against the forces of reactionary privilege.
We are wrong to assume that the entreprenurial people are the 'class enemy' - often they are people of humble backgrounds who have worked hard to develope their ideas and get their businesses off the ground. So long as they are prepared to offer good jobs and social benefits, they have a place in modern Britain. we must focus on what Governments do best and leave the entreprenuers to do what they do best under a well regulated market that allows them to operate under the rule of law and with the benefit of accessible Justice and a Free Press.
But the fight for STV will not be short, or easy. Will must be prepared for another long , hard fight if we are to gain what Britain needs and what the Common People deserve.
When i wrote about the Peterloo Massacre in one political community, someone said " I felt as if I was watching it all a movie."
Yes, the fight of the Common People down the years, it is a stirring tale, and Ii am proud that on occassions , that I have been a part of it. And make no mistake, it isn't over yet.
(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 01:42 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 01:56 (UTC)We invented Socialism , not him, he simply explained the economics of the victorian era and neveer saw the vast potential of industrialisation - that is why his revolution never came off.
(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 01:59 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 02:14 (UTC)One other was that if the workers took control of the means of production, all would be sweet and rosy.
In actual fact, in the UK , we got hold of a lot of Means of Production - of Wealth Creation ,even . I doubt if marx realised that services would one day create more wealth than manufacturing - but anyways we had it and it didn't really pan out.
Sorry - not a marxism myself and not handing back anything he never actually wrote.
this analysis was mine and owes more to the dates in wiki and the front page of the Indy that it does to marx, whom i have not read for at least 15 yrs.
(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 02:37 (UTC)I don't think he did. It's called the dictatorship of the proletariat for a reason.
(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 22:25 (UTC)What he forgot was that people are people - they don't always play nice, and they usually play the system - like a balaliaka in some cases :)
(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 18:14 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 22:36 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 02:22 (UTC)And while we're on the subject, why are these voting system change posts always so meandering and convoluted? If more then half the post is before you "get to the point", maybe it's too long.
(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 10:07 (UTC)But this:
FOR PITY'S SAKE , BRITAIN!
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DEFEAT FASCISM BY LEAVING THE JOB TO LABOUR UNDER FIRST PAST THE POST !!!
Which specific fascists are we speaking of here? The BNP? The natural fascism in all of us? Because obviously this isn't politically inspired hyperbole, but a Cassandra shouting of peril to those who will not hear.
This sort of thing may be one of the reasons that AV was rejected: in bleak times, hyperbolic rhetoric can become antipathetic to its cause.
BTW, if the fascists come, how will a voting system defeat them?
(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 16:09 (UTC)Good question. Every time fascism has has come to a country it rode on a wave of popular support.
(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 18:15 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 22:34 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 13:11 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 8/5/11 22:30 (UTC)Seriously, he was a petty outlaw who robbed many a rich cleric passing through the woods, but that was it.
When a legend becomes a fact though, people print the legend.
No, neither Robin Hood nor henry V were as the films prtrayed them. And we never had a PM like hugh Grant , sad to say.