Is it too late ?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

A couple of stories from Libya highlight what is going on there right now, plus my obligatory two cents worth:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368626/Libya-RAF-abort-attack-SAS-spot-Gaddafi-using-human-shields.html

First, let's be clear that Gaddaffi is behind Lockerbie and so much else. i am not suprised to see him using human shield s and trying to get journalists killed as a propaganda tool.

But if he going to do this, and maybe park his tanks and anti aircraft asstes next to schools and hospitals, it will take time to flush him out.

Ok, the SAS are obvously there, waving off an air attack at the last second. Should they be there in the first place?

I would argue that these special forces are acting as FAC - Forward Air Control.

They are not marching in then digging in and holding ground. I think that this is what Libyans want to avoid. acting as air contol assets does not breach the spirit of the UN Resolution inany real sense, any more that you could call a shot down pilot or a Search and Rescue Mission a real part of an Army of Occupation.
An Airstrike is in the rules , and FAC are standard operational procedure. If anyone sends in as much as one boatload of marines to hold a beach hut, or the Special forces of any nation go in to conduct operations on the ground to directly attack material or personell, this is going beyond what the UN and the Libyans want, but I have to say that Special Forces calling in an airstrike and dissappearing without firing a shot themselves is not what I can describe as ' mission creep'.

The other link I want to add is concerning the fate of ' the bad guys'. seriously, the pro - Gaddaffi forces have had to fall back 100 miles, it's saying. Death and destruction has rained down from above - and yet Gaddaffi himself is unhurt. These poor guys are mostly conscripts. Even if some are mercenaries, I feel some sympathy for them. because Gaddaffi, the real villain of the peice is most probably safe in some bunker somewhere as others bleed and die for his miserable cause. the dail Mail is hated by many left wingers in Britain for its usually ' gung ho' coverage of foriegn wars - this time, I feel that they have got the tone right. wars, even just wars , are tragedies.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368581/For-malice-orders-Tripoli--crush-mercy--RICHARD-PENDLEBURY-feels-sympathy-men-snuffed-efficiently.html

As several real and regular military people on this forum have said, this isn't some sort of game. people are being killed on both sides and we need to remember that. But, Gaddaffi is a cynical terrorist and needs to be removed. Let us not cheapen the cause of freedom by cheering the deaths of any who make it possible. These men are all someone's sons. Rather , let us hope that we have not decided to help the Libyans too late, and that some good can yet come out of this conflict.

Comments

[blue-mangos.livejournal.com]

Now I want to know what you said. It must have been very bad for YOU to think it was inappropriate.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Self-moderation FTW OMGZLOLZ.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Having watched the CNN man talking , I am concluding that theis is the same event.
Ok, Ii was not there, and it looks that way to me, so if anyone knows different, let them come up and say so.

However, there aree certain facts that nobody is arguing about.
A Libyan building was hit, and camera men, foriegn Journalists and such , were brought into view te damage.
as it turns out, further strikes were planned and actually incoming , and the Dialy Mail accuses the gaddaffi regime of pulling the journos in , either to serve as a 'human shield ' to prevent further attacks ( in fact it did, an incoming stike was ' waved off' by SAS FAC according to them) or maybe, the mail implied, the journos would have been killed in the airstrike, and the Gaddaffi regime wanted that to happen as a Western 'own goal '.

now, the CNN guy is taking the line here that this was BS - they wer husteld in and husled out quickly. Not the way you would expect them to be treated if iit was intended tha they were either a Human shield or intended to be killed in the incoming airstrike.

The CNN reporter appears consistent, both in what he says and in keeping with what we actually know. I am just suprised that the times is taking Fox's side here. i expected better of them, to be honest, this will only damage their credibility if it comes out that CCN is right.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12805214
the beebs take on it.

It could be that the air defences are degraded and the libyan Regime did not know they were stiill being targetted when the journos were invited in to see the daage. maybe.

otoh, CNN are livid - at least their corresponent is.

Now, the question I want to know is, how did it get out that the SAS had waved the incoming attack away ? The SAS usually operate in secret , I doubt if they rang the mail to tell them what happened, so how did the Mail come by this info? Answers on a postcard, plz :)

[stewstewstewdio.livejournal.com]

otoh, CNN are livid - at least their corresponent is.

Breaking news. CNN has declared war on Fox News. There may be no end game in sight. Oh, the humanity!!!

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

the beeb says this - no mention of human shields, but it eems likely that the degraded air defence system did not know of more incoming -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12805214

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

in war, truth is usually the first casualty.

[kris-schnee.livejournal.com]

It's still "mission creep". First we were told "no soldiers on the ground" and already it's "...except for elites helping with airstrikes". What's next -- just a few military advisers, or the elites firing a few shots since they're around anyway? It'll be presented as just one more little logical step that we shouldn't object to.

And we're still not hearing much about these rebels and whether they're any better than their tyrant.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

It's always Mission Creep, Mission Seep......

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

or the elites firing a few shots since they're around anyway

I lold big time. :-D

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12698562
Personally, I will put money on these guys being significantly better than Gaddaffi, myself.

But there are serious questions that need an answer.
maybe theywill not oust Gaddaffi, so what then?
if the decide to partition the counry, or ask for more Western or other foriegn assistance, I think we should follow their lead and give them the chance to set up a democratic regime.

But no, it would be wrong to send in troops is they don't want that. A downed bomber aircrew is not 'troops on the ground', nor is a rescue team sent in to pick them up, and nor is a FAC Party. Military advisors, special forces anti tank teams? well, yes, they are people we need permission to send in before we send them.Lets start giving the libyans the small things first before we start saying ' here is your country back '.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

"Hmm.....there's no Tsar now and this group of Majoritarians claim to be a Majority and are talking about a People's Revolution. They also want to end this wasteful war which the current government is pointedly ignoring? What's the harm of letting this "Peace, Land, and Bread" faction do what it does?"

A FEW YEARS LATER:

"Oh, this hasn't worked out as well as we thought....."

[peamasii.livejournal.com]

"let us hope that we have not decided to help the Libyans too late"

No, it's never too late. But I find it strange, he was SO well liked by our smiling leaders.

[il-mio-gufo.livejournal.com]

that's right ~ smells fishy, doesn't it?

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Must be the tunic.

Ha ho:

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Behold, the fruits of George Bush's liberation policy in the Middle East:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1194766,00.html