They just don't get it...

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

It turns out that a British diplomat turned up at the border and asked to be taken to rebel commanders in Libya. he had with him a detail from the SAS, a crack British Special Forces outfit, similar to the American Delta Force, only with stiffer upper lips and no chewing gum to hand out.

Anyways, the Libyan commanders didn't ask for, and didn't want any forign troops involved in what they see as 'their' struggle against Gaddaffi. So they captured the SAS guys and threw them into the brig, only releasing them unharmed once they had got the british diplomat out of their country.

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/03/05/libyan-rebels-capture-british-sas-unit/

So, there you have it. The Libyans are asking for a UN backed intervention in their struggle.
They want the UN , not the UK or the USA to send in any ground troops.

Seeing as if the rebels win, they are going to have to go to their own people and say that' we are not the sellouts to Western Powers like Gaddaffi was ( remember that the jets and tanks he is currently using to murder his own people were supplied by the same people who want to start an invasion) - well , i think it is only fair that they should be the ones who set the terms on how Gaddaffi is otten rid of. Ok, he has to go, nd his own people are the ones to take him down.

Ii don't see the military dictators and undemocratic despots who rule Arab League countries being very enthusiastic about establishing a bit more democracy in the world , somehow - esp. in a place like Libya.

And that leaves the UN. So, what is the UN for? UK/USA forces have basically been acting like the military wing of their countries corporate interests of late. i don't blame the Libyans for telling the SAS that they were unwelcome.

I do think that the Libyans have every right to appeal to the international community, via the UN , which pledges itself to uphold human rights , to which they belong , to give them a hand by way of enforcing a no fly zone and supporting the Libyan Ground forces with airstrikes on Gaddaffis mercenaries, together with his tanks and artillery.

I am suprised that the UK Government didn't get it that the age of gunboat diplomacy is over, but what else can we expect of ex public schoolboys like 'Call Me Dave'? Cameron and his cronies in the British foriegn office 'just don't get it' - but I hope that someone out there in the wider world does, and does what the rebels are begging the international community to give them without delay.

But if you disagree with the idea of airstrikes, and the Libyans are not going to co operate with any foriegn troops that they regard as 'invaders', then what role or position do we want the UN to adopt here? It has been said in this community that ' this is not what the UN is for - well, ok, what should it be doing instead?

Comments

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Well, he is cameron's buddy, not mine.
remeber, i was still at school and drinking orange juice when the british Empire was running things , so I am not exactly totally responsible for what when on way back then.

ok, so these days , i have a vote, and I use it in support of the Green Party.
And no, we do not support American or British imperialist policies.
we are especially dead set against the export of arms. it is in our manifesto.

Now, you may say to me that when we get into power, nothing is going to change, that we will slowly be corroded from our high moral position by the trappings of being in government.

this is a horrible fate, one that i shall do everything to avoid.

But something tells me that this wil never happen to me personally.
See, people who know me well say that I can't be bought off. Even my own Union cannot trust me to back them if I think they are in the wrong - so, nobody is going to back me anyway. i shall never hold office because i won't sell out on my own principles to get into office.

So, I will most likely never get the job. however, i shall still come on this community and say what i think our PM ought to do, even if i never get to be PM myself.

No, we ought to help the Libyans to the extent they want some help. Then let them run their own elections, and let the people who they elect sell their Libyan oil to whoever they want.
But I cannot see that happening either, comrade- we do not live in an ideal world, alas.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

So when you advocate for UK intervention, thus essentially siding with your government's decision, aren't you talking on behalf of your people? But when your government did something ugly, you distance yourself from your people? Which is it? I can't make the difference when you're you and when you're your people.

Forget all that Green Party propaganda. We're talking about something way beyond some petty parties. You're not the official mouthpiece of the Green Party. You're you. Speak as you, not as the Green Party's spokesman.

I admire your passion and willingness to give advices to your PM. You're a politically active person. That's good.

Yes, the real world we live in will most likely see another Gaddafi in charge of Libya. He'll again be doing good business with you, selling you cheap oil for guns. And everything will continue as usual, just your guys will have scored a few more "cool" points on the board. Who cares. What matters is that your desired "democracy" won't arrive in Libya.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Forget all that Green Party propaganda. We're talking about something way beyond some petty parties. You're not the official mouthpiece of the Green Party. You're you. Speak as you, not as the Green Party's spokesman.

YES, THANK YOU!!!

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

So when you advocate for UK intervention, thus essentially siding with your government's decision, aren't you talking on behalf of your people? But when your government did something ugly, you distance yourself from your people? Which is it? I can't make the difference when you're you and when you're your people.,/i>

Ok, I have said stuff like ' we beat the germans in 1945' when actually I wasn't even around. strictly speaking , Britain beat the Nazis who ran Germany, but i think you know what I mean and yes, i know that the french, the canadians, and everyone else on the Allied side was more involved that I was, born in 1956 when it was all over.

Me ? I support my government when it does ' the right thing' - stands up for democracy, human rights, environmental protection and all that in a meaningful way.

I mean, I think it was a good thing that the british Raj abolished Sutee in India, and that the british Navy put an end to the slave trade throughout most of the world.

But ' we', ie, the British Empire also did stuff like set up concentration camps in South Africa to win the Boer War, and the colonial rule is now extended in many countries by business proxies. Like, for instance, Ghana is a land that grows cocoa - but no factory in Ghana makes chocolate bars.
Why not? Because we, the british , won't let them! that's right , we have a treaty that says that they grow the stuff, but must sell it to us so we make the chocolate and can thus get maximum profit.

Now, this is one thing that Britain is not alone in , the exploitation of the world's poor. it's just that this is a uniquely English way of doing it and we, the briits, ought to put a stop to it, as we are directly responsible.

This may make things a bit clearer on whare Ii stand, but if not, please get baack to me. i will try to consistently try to speak of my country as a seperate entity to myself in future - in many ways, the government is :)

What matters is that your desired "democracy" won't arrive in Libya.,/i>
I guess that you are right here. Consensus of opiniion , and smart opinion at that is pointing that way.

however, I still think that we should do our bit, rather than just leave gaddaffi to get on with it. Someone once put it to me that the guys who did not interve in the story of 'The Good Samaritan ' were doing the right thing. After all, there could have been robbers still lurking behind the rocks, leaving the guy there as bait for the next unwary traveller who came past.

Yeah, I can see that. but I'm afraid I am still the sort of guy who would risk going to help. I hope that Democracy will emerge, not just in Libya, but in Burmah and many other places. I know it does not seem likely, but we must just do our best and hope that what we do will counteract all the evil that goes on. I just hope that some good will emerge if gaddaffi goes, and I'm pretty sure that nothing will if he stays.

[jerseycajun.livejournal.com]

The parable of the Good Samaritan is good and useful for individuals, but what is useful for individuals is not necessarily useful and good for actions of state.

Is it moral to drag the consequences of intervention onto those who, like the majority here, warned you that there would be unintended consequences and hardships?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Well, I will urge my government one way, and you can do what you want with yours.

There could also be unintended consequences of just letting gaddaffi get on with it.