on the merits of sticking SOLIDARITY stickers all over my face

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Will the protests further stoke the resentment many harbor for public worker's unions? Or will the backlash in reaction to Republican attempts to throttle organized labor be the bigger impact of these events? What about people like me, people who have criticisms of some aspects of public unions but generally support the idea that public workers should have decent wages and pensions? (Really all people should have the opportunity to work for those things.) Are these events making "nuanced" positions invisible?

I mean... I'm ticked off enough to start sticking SOLIDARITY stickers all over my face. (Will that help?) yet, I don't feel this accurately represents my views on the essential, yet easily corruptible role of unions in this country. *sigh*

Comments

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Also their compulsory nature is something I have never been able to justify.

That has always bothered me as well. I have had one job where I was in a union and I had no choice in the matter. (Well, I could have stayed out, but I'd still have to pay dues... and I would not get to vote... so what was the point?)

I found that union very much tone deaf to the needs of younger members, I thought their negotiation methods were ham-handed and blunt. I felt ignored and under-valued. They didn't even bother telling us new members when the union elections were! But, you can bet they had a bus ready to pick us up when they needed a few thousand warm bodies for one of their protests. (I had never been to a protest where someone just slaps a tee-shirt on you and gives you a sign while you are still just trying to understand what the protest is for and why you're there. It was a really belittling experience!)

That said, my pay was decent at the job, my pay now, at a job that requires much higher degree, and more refined skills is much lower. (But I like this job better... so...)

People I know who are loud avid union supporters say that I am naive, that I don't know how bad it can get-- (this may be true!) They say that if you give an inch they will take a mile. I can admit that that scares me. I know what its like to work without any collective bargaining power on your side, when you can be fired at will and be jerked, frightened and pressed in to working longer hours off the books just to keep your job... You do want to HAVE a job right?

I know what it's like to be scared to complain about anything. It sucks.

And really, I'm not bothered if some union members make good wages, I'm glad someone in this country has some financial security! More people should have that. IMNSHO. Union pensions seem "fat" to some folks? Well GOOD, I say.

I just have some reservations about the priorities of unions. Public sector unions must not lose sight of the fact that they are there to serve the public-- they cannot become insular protecting even their worst members at all costs. And they must welcome new members... they must think of the future of their profession not just their own pensions and pay-scale steps.

Maybe its becuase they feel cornered that they often seem so vicious and uncompromising. Maybe if there were more healthy unions in the private sector this wouldn't feel like such a desperate last stand.

[nevermind6794.livejournal.com]

I think I made this comment a while ago, but I wish unions would sort of police themselves. I know teachers' unions will protect teachers that they know are horrible.

[farchivist.livejournal.com]

What I fail to understand is why people are focused on unions anyway. I barely know they exist. They don't have any power in GA.

Do we have them? Sure, I guess. There's the IBEW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBEW), which has no power whatsoever and can't even set standards or prevent electricians from fradulently representing themselves as IBEW-certified. The Lockheed people sort of have a union, but last time they tried anything (over a decade ago), Lockheed just fired them all and hired strikebreakers immediately. Illegal immigrants were happy to be picked up by the truckload for that one. The former Bellsouth Union died around 2005 and is totally toothless. Our teacher's union (if one still exists) is powerless and has no bargaining powers whatsoever.

If Wisconsin doesn't like unions so much, why don't they just become a right-to-work state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law) and depower them that way? Under right-to-work, unions become pointless.

[fleaplus.livejournal.com]

> If Wisconsin doesn't like unions so much, why don't they just become a right-to-work state and depower them that way? Under right-to-work, unions become pointless.

Actually, since that would be a non-budget bill, I wonder why the Republicans don't end up just passing something like that while the Democrats are out of the state.

[farchivist.livejournal.com]

My guess: This would depower the unions in the manufacturing sectors of the Wisconsin economy, which would anger the Republican workers who are located in those private unions. The food processing industry is heavy there; the unions in that business are pretty powerful and would take ill to a right-to-work law.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

When Lockheed was based in Ca I recall the union being pretty strong. Until he went management, He was a strong union guy and even a rep (iirc). But then the aero-space industry isn't what it was back in the 60s.
Strangely enough, as strong a union man as my dad was, he was rabidly anti union in his second job.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Very valid point. Nuance is a bitch, and it tends to get drowned somewhere inbetween the loud, screaming extremes. It always happens this way.

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

Can we have a new rule here banning nuance? It's confusing and does not contribute much to lulz.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

We could, but the opposition would then repeal it.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

You would have to leave the internets to avoid a vote on it.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

And then I'll take to the streets on a totally disorganized grass-roots rally.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Not to mention, you would be the only one at the rally. Or is there another Bulgarian on T_P who is just too embarrassed to mention it?

Except for the sea coast and the great scenery, I get the idea it is a great place to be from....as far away from as possible, sort of like Northern California ;)

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

I don't know what has created that impression ;-)

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

There's something specific about the Balkan mentality that we westerners fail to understand. If you've watched a movie by Emir Kosturica or two, you'd get a touch of that. Its the "we suck, and that's so awesomely funny" charm in their mentality thats so unfamiliar to us. Those people know how to laugh at themselves. They also know how to enjoy life - the harder it is, the more they enjoy it. And thats their enormous charm.

It often confuses us, though, into concluding wrongly that "this place sucks and i should keep as far away as possible". And so we miss a wonderful opportunity to see into the life of REAL people.

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

Personally speaking, I see little difference between the compulsion of working within an existing structure at a union or non-union shop. Both have organizations and authorities in place, you're the newcomer, this is the way it is.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

We had all this in the UK back in the 1970s.
the big difference is that in a 'closed shop' , you need a Union card to work.
The Union can expell you if you disagree with union policy, and you therefore lose the card and lose the job.

this was one reform that Thatcher brought in, allong with the provision of the secret ballot instead of the ' show of hands' for strike action.

The problem goes way beyond places like Wisconsin , or even remote places like the USA. here in the UK, and across Europe, public services are being savaged by Government cuts.

And from what I see, some people just don't gt it. I mean , they just want their trains to arrive on time and take them home. they don't see that staff cuts are going to be important, they just want trains , ok.

Now, last night on our station , we had a young woman sitting on a platform literally unable to stand up and board a train. We are having to send off the last trains and close the platforms *and* take care of this young woman as well. We had to pull ticket office staff and a supervisor in to get it sorted, and we just about managed.

You can only do so much on mimimal numbers. good job it wasn't a security alert. And this is the problem with Camerons Big Society . You need trained personell to do what we do, and laying off Tom from a public service job and putting him on the dole while you let Dick pocket the difference because Harry is volunteering to pick up litter in the park for nothing is not going to fix things.

[nevermind6794.livejournal.com]

Well, you have to pay dues to a union.

"It don't come easy"

[russj.livejournal.com]

"Got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues,
And you know it don't come easy."

--Ringo Starr

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I don't like the idea of a closed shop (although it's preferable to banning collective action IMO; but they're already illegal in Australia). However, it gets a bit frustrating being the one who pays their dues, goes to meetings, organises actions, negotiates with management etc. etc. etc. and then having everyone get what we've fought for (I wouldn't have it any other way, however), especially when the reason many people aren't union members is through laziness.

[paedraggaidin.livejournal.com]

Sadly, even if you did, I doubt whether most people would get the reference.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I'm with you.

I've previously noted that public sector unions have a peculiar problem of having to negotiate salary and benefits with people who get campaign contributions from them. That needs reform the same way corporate donations to their own regulators needs reform.

And the unions in Wisconsin have said they are willing to negotiate on the benefits issue, yet the governor wants to plough ahead with this "budget" bill without having sat down to negotiate with them at all -- he's been in office for two months and goes straight to this "solution".

Wisconsin public workers have been unionized for half a century and nearly all state governments with such unions have underfunded their share of the pension, raided it for the general budget and/or mismanaged its investments. Meanwhile, rank and file contributions to pension and health care plans are automatically deducted, so even if their end of the deal has been fairly sweet, they lived up to their ends.

But we're supposed to blame the UNIONS for the problem?

It would be more honest if the governors would just submit legislation to bar public workers from having a CBU at all.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

If the governor was inclined to actually negotiate, as opposed to trying to be Don Vito Corleone, this would be different. The Union yields almost everything to him except one inch, but he wants the whole hog. Though I also find it hilarious who Solidarnosc was striking against....