[identity profile] pastorlenny.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics

I have recently been convinced by arguments in this community that fundamentalism in all its forms is indeed the enemy of all that is good. In fact, I have come to recognize that one form of fundamentalism in particular – fundamentalist nationalism – is perhaps the greatest threat mankind has ever faced.

The nature of the threat
The modern nation-state is rather plainly the primary cause of war, oppression and the exploitation of peoples in the modern world. We need only look at two world wars and sundry third-world conflicts to substantiate our case. While naïve observers may see ethnic, religious and ideological rivalries as the bases of these conflicts, the real issue is almost invariably related to territoriality and national interest. The Soviet Union did not want Czechoslovakia to merely ascribe to some economic ideology. It wanted that national territory to be subject to its national interests -– economic, military and territorial.

Likewise Biafra, Vietnam and the rest. People draw maps. They believe in maps. And they want the lines on the maps to be moved this way or that way. For this, they are willing to sacrifice the lives and well-being of countless men, women and children.

Even the present threat of militaristic Islamism can be traced to this fundamentalist belief in spurious concepts such as “nationhood” and “borders.” Western nation-states for years cared about nothing so much as ensuring their ability to move resources from “other countries” to “our country.” As a result, they machinated the most outrageous offenses against anyone who happened to have the misfortune to live in those “other countries.”

The consequences of this fundamentalist ideology then became plain. Eventually, the people in those “other countries” recognized the “country” that had perpetrated these offenses as their sworn enemy. So they attacked that “country” in any way they could – even if it meant killing its innocent civilians. After all, it was – according to the first perpetrators themselves – not some independent contractor working at the behest of a narrow set of oil and banking organizations that brought down Mossadegh. It was this “country.”

How it is promulgated
The pernicious lie of fundamentalist nationalism is propagated through a variety of means. Attend any sports event and you will see how patriotism has become the opiate of the masses. Sure, “O Canada” has a stirring melody. But what is the real message? It is that, above all else, those singing it are Canadians. And so countless millions of otherwise productive people-hours have to be wasted on the absurd enterprise of defending the longest border in the world.

Listen to the rhetoric of Barack Obama. In his recent speech on the state of the nation, he went on and on about how people “here” have to “out-innovate, out-educate and out-build the rest of the world.” And people clap wildly for this kind of fundamentalist screed! It appeals to our basest instincts and by its very nature pits people against people – as though the cosmos were some kind of zero-sum game that we have to “win” by utterly defeating our fellow human beings.

Worse yet, we force our children into what are essentially madrasas – where we relentlessly indoctrinate them into the fundamentalist idea that their identities are inextricably bound up in the destiny of some fabricated entity we call their “country.” We teach them the history of that country above all others, as though it were some substantive and exceptional phenomenon. We enlist them in the project of making “their country” better than the “other countries.” We even keep score now, and we fret as our scores drop below that of our foes in the struggle for national supremacy. And what pride we take when we pass a Denmark or a France. Stupid France! Pathetic Denmark! May you fall – and may we rise. Nation without end, amen.

The solution
The first step to addressing the issue of fundamentalist nationalism is to be clear about one thing. Nations are based on the entirely on fantasies that have no connection to any empirical reality. Take a walk through the Alsace or Sudetenland some time. You will find that there are actually no borders anywhere. Sure, man may build a wall or a checkpoint where he pleases. But these are fabrications built with money siphoned off of a sheep-like populace to finance the fantasies of the national priesthood. And, yes, a river or mountain range may seem to form some kind of national boundary. But, trust me, there is no dotted line floating in the middle of that river. And if an army should choose to ford that river, what meaning would that imaginary line have, anyway?

Another key truth for us to soberly acknowledge is that no national constitution is valid. I mean, look at how different they all are! If there were a proper way to run a nation, all nations would ascribe to that one true way. But even dictators can’t agree about how to dictate. So there is obviously zero validity to the enterprise of national governance.

Finally, let us be done once and for all with flags. What an offense a flag is to a reasoning and reasonable person. When I see one, all I can think about is the people who have been slaughtered under its murderous power. Think Iwo Jima. Corpses littered all about. Yet we are stirred to think this something good – because of a damn flag.

Let’s face it, the notion of the nation-state is no more than a leftover evolutionary imperative from back when we had to maintain a hunting ground for our tribe or clan. To cling to such a notion today is to write our own death warrant.

Stop supporting this madness. Renounce your citizenship. Turn in your passport. Don’t pay war taxes. If you are jailed for these noble actions, embrace the honor of being in the front line of resistance against the great oppression of our age. Neither religion nor atheism should be our singular cause at this critical hour. Let us become anationalists – and so rescue humankind from itself.


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Date: 2/2/11 14:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
I realize this is satire but it's not too far from my own views on nationalism. The ideology has been responsible for more misery than any other. Where the USA has done pretty well for itself as a multi-national multi-racial state.

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Date: 2/2/11 14:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
Props on mentioning Biafra. Very Sixties.

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Date: 4/2/11 12:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anfalicious.livejournal.com
I like that he went to the effort to spell naïve correctly...

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Date: 2/2/11 14:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
Actually I believe the argument was that fundamentalism was a major source of violence. No judgment whether it was for good or evil. Also that it was obviously not the only source of violence in the world.

Anyways.

Nationalism has also been a source of violence, I agree. Look at the french revolutions, a real rise of nationalism in Europe. Beheadings o-plenty, and that was against themselves. Nazis used a sense of nationalism and racism to justify attempting to conquer Europe. The U.S. and manifest destiny...

Nations are based on the entirely on fantasies that have no connection to any empirical reality.

Nations are based on abstract concepts. A huge portion of things in our lives are. That doesn't mean they have 'no connection to reality' or are a 'fantasy', a fundamental thing that makes us human is the ability to understand and create complex ideas and use these ideas to abstract real world things in ways that let us talk about and communicate to others huge volumes of information at a time.

The rest of your stuff: no constitution is valid? Where are you going with this?

I'm guessing you're attempting satire of something or other, but you might have been better off to just come out and say the comparison you're trying to make.

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Date: 2/2/11 15:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
So did everybody in WWI use nationalism to justify an arms race as big as the one the USA and the USSR engaged in. The difference was that people were expecting to use the ones built up before 1914 but nobody wanted to use the ones built after 1945. Given what happened with the 1914 war, too......*shudders.* Yeah, nationalism's more evil than fundamentalism because only Pakistan and Iran are run entirely on the latter at this point. Nationalism led to the self-destruction of what had been the richest part of the world before 1914.

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Date: 2/2/11 16:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
"The rest of your stuff: no constitution is valid? Where are you going with this?"

It is a very weak attempt to defend belief in a god from the attack that each different religion has different holy books that say completely different things completely ignoring the fact that governments are instituted by people with no claim to universal morality or applicability whereas Religions and Gods DO make that claim.

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Date: 3/2/11 04:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anosognosia.livejournal.com
"Look at the french revolutions, a real rise of nationalism in Europe."

You keep using that word historical reference...

Image

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From: [identity profile] russj.livejournal.com
"The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."
(Old Testament | Daniel 2:27 - 45)

The toes of the image are our modern nation-states.
The stone cut without hands is the kingdom of God.

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Date: 2/2/11 15:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/-wanderer-/
This sort of sums up my opinions actually, with a bit of exaggeration.

Awww.......

Date: 2/2/11 15:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
"Nationalism of one kind or another was the cause of most of the genocide of the twentieth century. Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead." -Arundhati Roy.
Edited Date: 2/2/11 15:51 (UTC)

Re: Awww.......

Date: 2/2/11 16:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chron-job.livejournal.com
look at you, bringing it back the the topic of the month!

Re: Awww.......

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Date: 2/2/11 16:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anadinboy.livejournal.com
its not so much as we have the nation , its that the nation has us! even the local council has us in a grip

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Date: 2/2/11 16:06 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] singlethink.livejournal.com
People want to use violence for their country. Sure it seems like that, but typically they are defending some (even more) intangible idea (freedom, democracy, security, xenophobia, religion, etc.). For instance, many people want to fight for America, but if you asked them to invade Canada to expand the glory and land of the USA, most people would balk.

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Date: 2/2/11 16:07 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilio.livejournal.com
" In fact, I have come to recognize that one form of fundamentalism in particular – fundamentalist nationalism – is perhaps the greatest threat mankind has ever faced."

Wait, you're just now realizing this?

"The modern nation-state is rather plainly the primary cause of war, oppression and the exploitation of peoples in the modern world."

ROTFL yeah, the modern nation State is less than 500 years old and we know that there was no such thing as war before that.

That said with the exception of the Really weak attept to defend religion there at the end welcome to the libertarian camp, nice to see you finally came to your senses, now we just need to get to work helping the An Caps figure out how to make private police services work.

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Date: 2/2/11 16:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
"in the modern world" being the key phrase in the sentence.

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Date: 2/2/11 16:10 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] eracerhead.livejournal.com
Satire for sure but as with all satire it has the ring of truth. We have a world bound by less and less by lines of communication. The path toward world governance in some form is inevitable, we might as well accept it and start dealing with it now while we still have time.

I'm tired of the US both being encouraged and actively trying to be master of the world. We have the chance to do it right unless nationalism gets in the way. IMO no single country has the wisdom to run the world, there may be some synergy in the collective. Nobody knows but that may be our best shot.

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Date: 2/2/11 21:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
World governance is the wrong direction. That would pan-nationalism, not anationalism.

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Date: 2/2/11 16:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chron-job.livejournal.com
> After all, it was – according to the first perpetrators themselves
> – not some independent contractor working at the behest of a narrow
> set of oil and banking organizations that brought down Mossadegh.

Didn't you get the memo? The current popular mantra is that "Iran is Carter's fault" There was no history of any import in Iran prior to the Carter administration, and no actions prior to 1976 could have had any causative effect in brining about its unfriendly government.

> Don’t pay war taxes. If you are jailed for these noble actions,
> embrace the honor of being in the front line of resistance against
> the great oppression of our age.

I agree with pretty much everything you said... but the problem with implementation is that I am lazy, selfish, and fearful.

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Date: 2/2/11 20:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
What an offense a flag is to a reasoning and reasonable person. When I see one, all I can think about is the people who have been slaughtered under its murderous power

I don't see why people selected the cross over the fish. The cruxifix is creepy. There is a life sized color living Jesus in the elementary school (K-9) playground at St. Josephs down the block from me. I doubt that any of the younger ones could watch mel's movie, but that statue in agony is something they glance at everyday while they play kickball.

I bet I'm the only one who see's it that way, and the kids rarely if ever think about it. They pledge to the flag of course.
Edited Date: 2/2/11 21:30 (UTC)

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Date: 2/2/11 21:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
I have come to recognize that one form of fundamentalism in particular – fundamentalist nationalism – is perhaps the greatest threat mankind has ever faced.

I'm glad you've finally come around to the truth.

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Date: 2/2/11 22:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nevermind6794.livejournal.com
There isn't really any such thing as fundamentalist nationalism. Fundamentalism is strict adherence to literal reading of religious texts with no room for compromise, often in contrast with social progress.

Nationalism can lead to that sort of extremism, but such inability to compromise is not inherent in nationalism.

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Date: 2/2/11 22:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
That's nice in theory but nationalism very much is incompatible in practice.

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Date: 3/2/11 03:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] geezer-also.livejournal.com
(you really do write well, but you know that;) )

My one quibble: Wouldn't a true nationalist tend to be an isolationist or am I just projecting?

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