DADT-Fly on the Wall Syndrome

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

I think I can speak for most heterosexual guys when I say, "we'd love to be a fly on the wall in the shower room at Spa Lady or our local Community College ladies shower room".

The reason; the object of our lust is there in quantity, in variety and without clothing. We respond to the visual. We like to look!

How does this relate to DADT? When a homosexual guy is in the shower room with a bunch of heterosexual guys, in a barracks or on a Navy ship, he is that fly on the wall. I can't speak for how homosexual guys think but they are guys and I've no reason to think the would react or think any differently and the heterosexuals would react no differently to that cute little number at Spa Lady, if she knew (maybe less screaming and more violence).

On Thursday, there was a hearing in the Senate Armed Forces committee on the subject. In the MSM, I can only find testimony from Gates and McMullen who referred to 'orders from the President', with a minor notation that McCain opposed without any mention of why he opposes.

Therefore I am forced to, because the transcript of the hearings is not yet available on .gov, to quote the evil right-wing media, to wit; World News Daily. Don't cop out by arguing the source, please argue the contents.

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., pointed out during the first day of the Senate Armed Services Committee hearings on Thursday that according to a survey conducted for the Pentagon, repealing DADT could create an "alarming" troop retention problem at a time when the military is already shorthanded. Said McCain, "If 12.6 percent of the military left earlier, that translates into 264,600 men and women who would leave the military earlier than they had planned Do you think that's a good idea to replace 265,000 troops in a time of war?"

Other estimates go over a half a million who will get out ASAP. There are charges that the polls were biased because they polled mostly non-combatants.

"Marine Corps commandant Gen. James Amos acknowledged Friday that a clear majority of combat Marines oppose permitting open homosexuality in the ranks".

Some of the limited info I found. http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=235797

From another time in February. http://www.jcs.mil/speech.aspx?ID=1322

So let the controversy begin----------


Edit for telemann who provided better links.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/us/politics/03military.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=testimony%20don%27t%20ask%20don%27t%20tell%20mccain&st=cse

http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/12/02/all-players-stick-to-script-at-senate-hearing-on-repealing-dont-ask-dont-tell/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/02/AR2010120201895_2.html?sid=ST2010120204930

Comments

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

I Cannot get an LJ cut to work any more! Sorry.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

You realize that the current policy allows for gay men to shower with straight men, right?
So long as they LIE ABOUT WHO THEY ARE.

This issue is craptastic fuckall and is a clear violation of equal rights. Employment discrimination based on sexual orientation is unacceptable.

This is the same argument that happened when we were racially integrating the armed forces. Racist fuckfaces in uniform were all pissed about it. But guess what, they fucking got over it.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

You realize that the current policy allows for gay men to shower with straight men, right?
great point

Edits: I fail at html today :(

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

Naked men looking at naked men isn't gay.
A fully clothed guy lusting over fully clothed guy is gay.

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

"Naked men looking at naked men isn't gay."

Unless one of 'em has a boner.

I Ramble A Bit Here.......

[aannnndy.livejournal.com]

Well, personally I have never really been sexually attracted to anyone (I consider myself heterosexual but to be honest I have never "lusted" or been attracted to people who are "attractive"). This means I honestly don't know what it is like to shower with people one finds to be attractive.

I have showered and "skinny dipped" with both men and women in a public setting, though due to harboring no sexual feelings I might as well have been showering alone. Unfortunately there *would* be a few perverted men at the public clothing optional swimming holes who would take the "fly on the wall" status a little too far and upset many of the women there.

So, since never experiencing these emotions I can not emotionally relate to both the heterosexual men and homosexual men who are on both the giving and receiving end of sexual attractions in the showers that the U.S Military seems to be concerned about. I can see what those concerns are, though.

Re: I Ramble A Bit Here.......

[aannnndy.livejournal.com]

"I can see what those concerns are, though."

That's not to say I agree, though.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

As a gay veteran, who was in a "good ol' boys" unit in the Corps of Engineers, I can tell you EXACTLY what we queer folks are thinking in the shower:

"Shit, I've gotta get to formation on time. Did I leave my towel within reach? I hope they don't inspect uniforms today. Will we get leave this weekend? Dammit, the water is too cold. Where did I leave my deodorant?"

Simply put, we're NOT LOOKING AT YOU. We're too busy, and you're NOT that sexy. Gay folks don't oogle straight folks because we know they're not interested. And you know what? We're trying to get in and out of the showers quickly so that we can get to formation on time.

I'm sorry that YOU can't keep your dick in check if women are in your immediate vicinity. I'm sorry that you think with your cock first, and that women are only "objects of sexuality" to you. I feel bad for women who interact with you, that in your mind, they're nothing but objects of your sexual desire.

But no, don't flatter yourself to think that gay military folks are just there to get a peep show in the showers. Really, we don't give a shit. We've got the same junk as yours, and yours isn't that interesting. We're there to get a job done, to serve our country, and to fulfill a sense of duty that we have. We're not there to oogle at people in the shower.

In fact, I've noticed that more straight folks stare in the shower. What are you guys doing? Comparing? Or... see something you like? Jackass.

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

"Simply put, we're NOT LOOKING AT YOU."

I believe that's true of you but how would the other guys perceive your presence if they knew?

[omnot.livejournal.com]

As things stand, homosexuals serving in the military are showering with people of the gender they are attracted to.

The change when DADT comes in to play will be that people may no longer be oblivious to the fact that some of the people they are showering with are attracted to people of their gender.

The "problem" as you describe it is in the minds of homophobic people. Not in the minds of homosexual people. Homophobic people are morons who cannot imagine that some of their regular, every-day good buddies are homosexuals and they have not noticed.

Homophobic people are, to a large extent, hysterical haters who are outraged at a mythical construct of "faggots", and who cannot conceive of the possibility that homosexuals might not want to violate them and contaminate them with "the gay".

The basic rational and perceptual flaw in the make-up of homophobes demonstrates a disturbing lack of suitability for military service; where they will be placed in situations where life and death judgment calls are likely.

So my proposal is that we ban homophobic people from serving in the military. Not only will it improve the average IQ of the serving forces, making it safer and more effective in every way, but it will solve the hazard these homophobes pose to decent, hard working homosexual people.

[ygrii-blop.livejournal.com]

You're right. It's simply too inconvenient right now to practice equal rights for all. We'll do it later some time.

Poopy pants MSM treats John McCain so bad!!!

[telemann.livejournal.com]

the MSM, I can only find testimony from Gates and McMullen who referred to 'orders from the President', with a minor notation that McCain opposed without any mention of why he opposes.

Really? That's funny because I found these relatively very quickly:


New York Times: McCain Questions Pentagon on Repeal of Gay Ban." (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/us/politics/03military.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=testimony%20don%27t%20ask%20don%27t%20tell%20mccain&st=cse) "Mr. McCain said that 58 percent of Marines in combat units and 48 percent of Army combat troops thought repealing the law would have either a negative or a very negative impact on the ability of their units to work together. "

Time: "All Players Stick to Script At Senate Hearing On Repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/12/02/all-players-stick-to-script-at-senate-hearing-on-repealing-dont-ask-dont-tell/) "McCain contended the Pentagon study released Tuesday is flawed because it never asked troops if the ban should end." And "Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., said he disagreed with the Pentagon's conclusion that the 28 percent of the 400,000 troops who responded to the Pentagon's polling on the topic was "statistically significant" and made the data reliable. "I have talked to people in the field who have said that `We didn't respond because the decision was already made,'" Inhofe said."

Washington Post: "McCain, others say military gays study is biased." (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/02/AR2010120201895_2.html?sid=ST2010120204930) "Each of the panel's Republicans, except repeal supporter Sen. Susan Collins of Maine, agreed with McCain that the study was flawed. Several said the 28 percent response rate was too small to be indicative of the entire force. Gen. Carter Ham, who co-chaired the study, said he was comfortable that troops who did respond were representative. Republicans also noted that combat troops were the most resistant to the change, and said retention of valuable soldiers and Marines would suffer." And "McCain, R-Ariz., also said the study was flawed because it asked troops what impact repeal would have, instead of whether they wanted the law repealed at all. The study found that two-thirds of troops predicted few problems, but those who did were mostly assigned to combat roles."

The Report. (http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2010/0610_gatesdadt/DADTReport_FINAL_20101130%28secure-hires%29.pdf)

Re: Poopy pants MSM treats John McCain so bad!!!

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the links. I edited the OP in your honor.

I must have googled wrong.

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

"Finding people to replace bigots will be hard"

Thanks. Most comments didn't address the troop retention problem at all, which is the biggest potential problem. They just got their noses bent about the hetero/homo thing.

Go figure? I guess I've led a sheltered life.

I'm ignoring the bigot thing.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Who cares if someone lusts after you - whether in the shower or on the street. It has no bearing unless that person acts on it.

Really, this juvenile attitude about nudity shared by most of my fellow Americans is embarrassing.

Condescension?

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

"this juvenile attitude about nudity shared by most of my fellow Americans is embarrassing."

My guess is that you are far better than most Americans.(sarcasm)

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I hate to break it to all the would-be hard-chargers out there, but combat effectiveness has nothing to do with showers.

Buck up and follow orders, or pay the price.

This whole survey idea was ridiculous to begin with.

We go this speech in boot-camp: "I don't give a shit about your personal beliefs. I don't care if you don't like niggers. You love niggers. You will love niggers because I told you to love niggers. Or you will not be in my Corps."

The new speech? Yeah, I think you can guess where it will go from here.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

I enjoy that speech.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a straight guy, I am actually aware that I don't find every woman I see a potential sexy times partner.

Is this unusual? Because a lot of other straight guys seem really convinced that every gay guy who lays eyes on them is gonna want to make sweaty snugglebunnies, and I can't believe all of them are that delicious.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Because a lot of other straight guys seem really convinced that every gay guy who lays eyes on them is gonna want to make sweaty snugglebunnies, and I can't believe all of them are that delicious.

They're not. By a long shot.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

So, if DADT were repealed, the heteros would know who the gays are, and wouldn't show them the goods in the shower. Unable to get an eyeful in the communal showers, the former fly on the wall gay guys would leave the army, resulting in a staff shortage. I can see why people are worried.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I have yet to see a single rationale for excluding gays that was not used at one point to excuse racially integrating the armed forces, which took almost a century from the creation of USCT units.

[harry-beast.livejournal.com]

You might wish to look at the objections that were raised against integrating women into combat units. This debate took place decades ago in Canada. Some issues relating to physical differences like upper body strength, don't apply, of course. One concern was that unit cohesion would suffer, that a unit of soldiers would not be as close and tight knit a team if one or more of them was considered different.

[nikoel.livejournal.com]

Homosexual men have never had privilege over straight men so your gross comparison about leering at women in "Spa Lady" isn't valid.

[prader.livejournal.com]

The answer is obvious, communal showers for all!

And you know, if a guy who took a bullet meant for me looked a little longer in the shower than is normal... I think I could find it within myself to let it slide. The kids we're dealing with might not feel the same way.

This is one of those issues that I think both sides make legitimate arguments on- I can see the concerns of both.

But if the guy or gal is mission first, homosexual last... just like everyone else with whatever about them is important... I think he or she deserves the same dignity offered to everyone else.

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

I could go for that, especially if I were younger. And there's even a precedent in "Starship Troopers".

[oportet.livejournal.com]

If someone isn't mentally stable enough to handle someone else seeing them naked, then I wouldn't want that person handling my cover in battle - so why not let them go?

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

The shower "issue" is a red herring.

Most military members don't want to be working or fighting next to someone they believe is an immoral person. This is why the problem is not analogous to racial integration or even the gender integration.

And doesn't even touch on the not insignificant number of gays in the military who are good with DADT. I personally know 2 such people.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Most military members don't want to be working or fighting next to someone they believe is an immoral person.

That would mean a Jew in the military who keeps kosher in his or her home could not serve with a Jew who did not. And yes, actually, given the nature of the laws of keeping kosher, that's a reasonable comparison -- a devout Jew would look upon another Jew who failed to abide by them as immoral.

And doesn't even touch on the not insignificant number of gays in the military who are good with DADT. I personally know 2 such people

I cast doubts upon your sampling technique.

THE GAYS ARE ALL AROUND US!

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I realize that by the point you're citing WingNut Daily that this is a lost cause to argue but the Military playing Pretendsies when it comes to the Gay in our midst is pure denial.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

I dunno. Myself being heterosexual, if a gay man drools after me in the shower room, would i mind? Hell no. I'd feel flattered.

[moonchylde.livejournal.com]

The funniest thing about all this is I can definitely say from years of life drawing classes, movie watching and just observing people...


Naked people aren't usually sexy. They're just naked. You can see every wrinkly bit, every cottage cheese thigh and saggy midsection. Even guys that work out every day aren't usually going to look (or act) like models.

Naked guys are less of a turn on than partially/strategically clothed models. Why look at people in showers when you've got the Internet photoshopped for your amusement?

[onefatmusicnerd.livejournal.com]

Are you saying that there are sexier things than watching me pick lint out of my ass hair in the shower?

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

"If 12.6 percent of the military left earlier, that translates into 264,600 men and women who would leave the military earlier than they had planned Do you think that's a good idea to replace 265,000 troops in a time of war?"

Where did he get 12.6 percent?

Fly on the Wall Syndrome

The behavior cited is basically immature.

Perhaps if the military wasn't recruiting kids they would have more maturity in the ranks.

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

For every bigot who decides not to join, there's a gay man/woman who is willing to. Perhaps a more open-minded group of volunteer soldiers would go a long way in the hearts/minds side of the war.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I think I can speak for most heterosexual guys when I say, "we'd love to be a fly on the wall in the shower room at Spa Lady or our local Community College ladies shower room".

Maybe I'm just weird, but no. And thanks for perpetuating the stereotype that all hetero guys are perverts.

[ofbg.livejournal.com]

I really wasn't trying to perpetuate any stereotype or I.D. any persuasion as perverts. I truly believe most heteros really would like to be a 'fly on the wall' as described. It ain't perversion; it's a 'guy' thing, especially for the young singles. It's why strip clubs flourish.

Doing so would have been counter productive to the debate I was trying to promote which was the national security problem if the predicted loss of troops actually occurred.

Due to crappy wording in the OP, few commented from that angle.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

"Do you think that's a good idea to replace 265,000 troops in a time of war?"

A better question: Do you think it's a good idea to be represented internationally by 265,000 people who are such complete wussfucks that they can't handle being found attractive by someone? The fortitude to get ogled by creeps and tough it out is more or less a de facto job requirement for women in the forces, why shouldn't it be for men?

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

(By this I don't mean to snark the women who have to put up with harassment at work. Suppose they lived in an environment where straight men had to keep on the down-low about their straightness in general, for fear of giving women the impression that they're being checked out!)