Gay as a pejorative

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

“Ladies and Gentlemen, electric cars are gay,” Vaughn’s character Ronnie Valentine says. “I mean, not ‘homosexual’ gay, but ‘my parents are chaperoning the dance gay.”

-         The Dilemma

 

This preview has been getting a lot of negative press because of the use of the word ‘gay’ as a pejorative.

This is a pet peeve of mine among young people. I’ve noticed that 10-19 year olds seem to default to ‘gay’ way too much. So for me, it’s not a question of sensitivity to treatment of homosexuals as it is to the lame minds of our youth.

Ron Howard has said he will not remove this comment from the movie. I kind of think it fits the sort of comment and back peddle you typically hear from a Vince Vaughn character.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/the_big_picture/2010/10/ron-howard-on-the-dilemmas-gay-joke-it-stays-in-the-movie.html

So my questions:

1)       What do you do when you hear someone say “that’s gay” as a pejorative?

a.       What is a more apropos term/slang? I don’t want ‘lame’ coming back because of my time spent in the 80s…. I feel ‘lame’ is the gateway word to ‘gnarly’. Gnarly makes me want to gag myself with a spoon…like totally.

2)       Are you planning on seeing this movie? Does the ‘gay’ comment affect your decision?

3)      Is it okay to call Sponge Bob and Flapjack gay okay? I mean…come on they are gay..right?        

Comments

[zen-monk.livejournal.com]

1). I would say to them that I don't approve of that term just to show them that there are people who find that to be inappropriate and would hopefully encourage them to stop using the term. I won't get all preachy or anything, but I would go into full-on "NO" mode and move on.

a). What's wrong with "lame?" I think it would occasionally be appropriate to let someone know that they're handicapped in a way that's not literal, and to let them know they need to catch up.

2). I don't think I'll see this movie anyway.

3). I'm going to invoke a link that may be cliched but still apt:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaveAGayOldTime

[nikoel.livejournal.com]

ableism (http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/12/ableist-word-profile-lame/) is just as bad as sexism and homophobia. There are other words out there that are both more succinct and unoffensive.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

I'm catastrophically tired of hearing that word used to describe something the speaker isn't pleased with. I play World of Warcraft where there are about one billion 13 year old boys who call EVERYTHING "gay." Tired tired tired of it.

I don't pay money for Vince Vaughn movies. I don't even watch them when they come on nonpay cable TV. I find the man crashingly unfunny, much as I find Will Ferrell unfunny.

[sarien.livejournal.com]

Uggh. So much truth in WoW. People using "rape" all of the time in game was also disgusting. I never had trade chat turned on when I played. :/

words matter.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

1) I correct them as I would any other person who uses a bigoted word or phrase. This would go doubly or triply so if I heard my young nieces or nephews using such a term--I'd quickly, gently but firmly explain why such language perpetuates pain & marginalization.

1a) Your example is flawed in much the same way. It wasn't until I got to college around hard of hearing folks & other physically or otherwise challenged people that I learned that my use of the word "lame" was ableist. Even today, I find that word lingering in my vocabulary & I take pains to confront my own use so that I re-sensitize myself.

2) I hadn't heard of the movie (I'm woefully out of the loop), but controversies like this make it less likely that I will view it.

3) No. "Gay" should not be used as a descriptor, except in its (now obsolete) usage meaning "joyous, buoyant".

Re: words matter.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

Really? No "gay" even in its more current use as a value-neutral word for homosexuality?

Re: lame

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

feel 'lame' as a pejorative or even just as a description of a situation is far more accurate than 'gay'. Gay used to mean happy but is now exclusively used to describe someone's sexual preference.

Very rarely does 'that's gay' have anything to do with sex when it's used.

Lame however can mean "weak; inadequate; unsatisfactory; clumsy:".
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lame

Disabled people are rarely called lame. They are more often referred to as handicapped or special needs. In fact I have never heard anyone use the word lame to describe a person with a disability. Maybe the exception would be in a book but nothing modern.

Also, the word 'lame' should not be removed from our negative lexicon because it has intergraded uses such as lame-duck

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+lame+duck&aq=0&aqi=l1g2&aql=&oq=lame+duck+de&gs_rfai=

Taking ubrage with the use of lame is a bit hyper sensitive. I'd compare it to getting butt-hurt over niggardly.

Re: words matter.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I agree with you up until point 3. Queer Eye For The Straight Guy is pretty damn gay. I think it's fine being used as an accurate descriptor, but not as a pejorative.

[nikoel.livejournal.com]

Well, "lame" (http://disabledfeminists.com/2009/10/12/ableist-word-profile-lame/) is actually ableism, so that's bad right there. I managed to dump "gay" from my vocabulary when I was still a teenager, but getting rid of "lame, crazy, moron", etc. is something I'm still working on now as well as usage of sexist terms (bitch, pussy, slut, etc.).

Honestly, I would have seen this movie and rolled my eyes at the word when it was used, but wouldn't have personally protested the movie over it. Now that it's been made into such a big deal though and they refused to back down from it, it just makes them look like insensitive assholes. Coming up with another word that isn't hurtful and marginalizing to people really isn't that difficult and people who insist on doing so despite being talked to about it really shows they just lack basic compassion and don't deserve my money.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

1) Generally I nonchalantly proceed as if they'd just declared whatever-they're-talking-about to be literally homosexual, such as an electric car which only wants to fuck other electric cars of the same gender. This makes things get very confusing very fast, and if they want the conversation to proceed as if they'd expressed distaste for whatever-they're-talking-about, they'll have to go back and clarify.

a. Almost universally, when 'gay' is used in this way, there's something more specifically crappy about it which would be mentioned instead. This depends on context but I don't think there's a good one-size-fits-all substitute.

2) No, and no. The quoted dialogue is a joke about the practice of using gay as a pejorative, and I don't think it's all that hard to distinguish between one layer of meta and two. I still probably won't see the movie.

3) Flapjack is bi.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

1) Well said
a) I'll have to think about this more.
2) EXCELLENT POINT! Never looked at it this way.
3) Bi implies sex with women. I disagree Flapjack is as gay as an all man orgy is babyoil.

[pattyoplenty.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think all of the hyper-senstive politcal correctness is getting old. It's a silly line from a silly actor in a silly movie...and I leave it at that. It's not meant to be a homophobic statement.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Would you take offense if a politician used 'gay' as a pejorative or does the use of the word gay in a negative context bore you entirely and is always hyper-sensitive?

Are you planning to watch the movie?

Irony

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

Our parents: Gay = happy
Us: Gay = homosexual
Our kids: Gay = lame

Complaining about it is...gay.

Re: Irony

[hey-its-michael.livejournal.com]

Complaining about it is...gay.


Except most homosexuals themselves refer to themselves as gay, and most of society refers to homosexuals as gay, including "our kids". Ergo, your comparison is invalid.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

I'm kinda torn. On one hand yeah I know it's not cool to use the term that way. I've a lot of friends and family that are gay (in all senses of the term bah-dum shh!). On the other I should point out that it didn't originally mean "homosexual" either. It was hijacked to mean something else, and now it's being hijacked again. Such is the nature of the evolution of language.

And honestly the more gays complain about it the more it will be used, because I think our society is becoming increasingly trollish. Making something forbidden is the fastest way to make something appealing to teenagers and grown-ups with a teenage mentality.

The way I see it there are three ways gays can handle this. They can fight it and try to use PC pressure to make it unacceptable, but IMO that'll just drive the use of the phrase underground. They can ignore it, or they can go with the flow and use it that way themselves and eventually come up with some other slang for homosexual that doesn't have a negative connotation.

The third option isn't that far-fetched, I can think of at least two friends of mine that are gay and use the term in a derogatory fashion.

[lucazzo.livejournal.com]

I find it kind of disturbing that I was writing a comment fairly similar to yours at the same time =P

[lucazzo.livejournal.com]

It's unfortunate in many cases, but language has its way of evolving. Much like "gay" used to mean "happy, joyous", it may just transition (I hope it won't) into meaning "something devoid of awesomeness".

I think South Park made a pretty good point of it regarding the usage of the word "fag" to describe a jerk.

Also worth pointing out: language tends to evolve towards the shortest words possible for the sake of convenience. While I rather enjoy "nincompoop", it really takes a toll in terms of syllables. "Idiot" or "dickhead" are much shorter and easier.

I don't particularly like it, but it's the way slang evolves and occasionally becomes commonly accepted. If I'm going to avoid using "gay" in this new context I'll do it because I wish to respect any homosexual company I may find myself with, not because the spokesperson of some organization needs a reason for his/her salary.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

The difference is 'fagot' was a pejorative and then it started being used against gay people. 'gay' was not. People started using it as a pejorative because it meant homosexual and they were implying that something was homosexual and that it is a bad thing. Completely different situation.

I think we need to take back 'fagot' as a pejorative, it's such a nice choppy word.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

Well, lets see. Since the term originally meant happy and not homosexual and only became associated with the homosexuality because of a stereotype I see no need to defend the word. Allow it's meaning to continue to evolve and work on disassociating it with homosexual rather than trying to fix the stereotypical meaning attached to a word which really means something completely different to begin with.

Now on to the questions...

1) I don't think anything of it, they obviously do not mean it to be offensive to homosexuals in general, the meaning of the word is simply evolving.

2)Um, it stars Vince Vaughn. In my book that puts it barely a half step above a Paulie Shore movie. The man is not funny, interesting, or talented. I can't imagine any way short of someone paying me or a hot girl promising me sex that I could be persuaded to watch another movie of his**.

3) Yeah they definitely are gay in all 3 meanings of the word.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

** = I might go see a movie in which he plays a role, just as long as he is not the "Star"

[kgbman.livejournal.com]

I am offended and outraged by Ron Howard's gratuitous use of Vince Vaughn in this movie.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

lol.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Humbug.

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

'gay' is like any word, its offensiveness is not inherent to the word but a function of your intent and what you might reasonably anticipate from your audience.

I also think that its offensiveness is entirely beside the point in terms of whether or not it should be in a movie if that movie is a work of art (as opposed to, say, an instructional video)/creative expression of the author.

(It's also worth noting that 'lame' as pejorative is to some disabled people what 'gay' as pejorative is to some gay people.)

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

Louis CK on "faggot"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-otAJrtY-w

[hey-its-michael.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why people have an issue understanding this. If a group uses a label to describe themselves, other people co-opting that term to mean something negative is obviously a b.s. thing to do. I, and most "homosexual" men I know, refer to ourselves as "gay". Most of society uses that term to describe a man who is homosexual.

That people do not understand why calling something "gay" when they mean it is "stupid" or something bad betrays how utterly self-absorbed, conceited and lacking in basic logic skills the majority of our culture is.

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why people have an issue understanding this. If a group uses a label to describe themselves, other people co-opting that term to mean something negative is obviously a b.s. thing to do

I certainly hope that my post didn't come off as not understanding that it was a bullshit to use 'gay' as a pejorative. Did it?

"gay" when they mean it is "stupid" or something bad betrays how utterly self-absorbed, conceited and lacking in basic logic skills the majority of our culture is.

I don't see how it's self-absorbed or conceited it is logic-missing though and does show a disconnect between thought and words.

Now as a gay man did you find the pre-view offensive? Are you not going to see the movie because of it?
Did you feel forced to go see that gay cowboy movie (OMG I Forgot the name...I've been calling it bareback mountian for so long...lol) or were you actually interested in it? Western romance just isn't my thing plus when I found out there was no actual penetration scene....

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

1) I don't use it, but I generally don't make a big deal about it. People say unknowingly offensive things all the time. Its often better to just let it pass buy and not be offended knowing they aren't intending offense. If it's someone I know well, I might point it out. Sometimes I'll make a joke of taking it literally with friends.

2) I don't know if I'll see it or not, but it doesn't affect my decision. I doubt that his character is intended to be a paragon of virtue, he's portraying a flawed and ignorant human being like the rest of us. It fits in to his ignorant character well.

3) Who is Flapjack? I looked up pictures of him and he has wonderweiss teeth, and that's scary.

[ccr1138.livejournal.com]

My 14-year-old son and his friends do this. I've attempted to explain why it's bad (and banned it in my presence), but I think it's going the way of "retarded," by which I mean it's here to stay as a pejorative, no matter whose feelings it hurts or what teachers and parents say.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

1) is the toughest to answer
Depends on the time/place/people
I've tried, believe me. But then sometimes there's my gay (well, technically bi-sexual, but currently long-term dating a dude, so to most, he's de-facto gay) and he uses gay in the same way the movie did

2) Not planning on it. Prolly will when it's on Netflix insta-watch (my guess, 10-14 months) or HBO (8 months?)

3) It's okay to call homosexuals gay. Cause they are.
I don't watch spong bob, I dunno if he's homosexual or not.

It's okay to call Barney Frank gay. But it's used to degrade far too often. And it's de-facto inferior to things that aren't gay--or so the language seems to imply.

Laws against pot aren't gay.
They are awful, terrible, stupid laws. But not gay.
Gay isn't awful, terrible and stupid.

Neither are electric cars.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

When my students call something "gay", I call them on it, I ask "what about that is in anyway homosexual". They reply "nothing it's just a word to say its bad", so I ask them how they think that makes gay people feel, and ask if it's OK for our class to start using their name as a replacement. They usually decline.

We've come up with a suitable alternative in one of my classes, now things are so "twilight".

[verytwistedmind.livejournal.com]

Twilight is a pejorative in your class? You are my favorite teacher! you are now cooler than that lady who has a magic school bus and shrinks children!

[bikinisquad3000.livejournal.com]

There are a couple of really excellent blog posts about this (the Vince Vaughn thing particularly) by Jim Emerson, a film critic:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2010/10/the_gay_dilemma.html

http://blogs.suntimes.com/scanners/2010/10/for_those_who_were_offended.html

The comments are well worth reading also, somehow.