What *is* socialism , exactly? Is Obama really a Socialist?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

I have ben encouraged to write as a person and not a spokesman for the Green party, and been told tha I dissect some great issues.
So cop this one folks - Is Obama ~really~ a Socialist; What Socialism is and if it has any effect on society. My own opinions coming right up.

First, lets define what we mean. I will let the egg heads go for a dictionary definition , but here is the working man's definition.

Socialism is where Society, usually thru' an elected government, does things.
Now, all Communists are Socialists by default, but not all Socialists ae communists. How come/
Well, Communism does not allow private property. A men may own a suit or a car under a communist system, but the land and all the means of production , including businesses that create wealth thru providing services like transport - these are all owned by the state.

Now, Socialists cover everyone who wants some sort of state intervetion , be it total or partial.

By this yardstick, if the State has an education policy and nothing else, it is partly Socialist and partly run on Capitalist Private Enterprise - and we could call it a Mixed Economy. but ist isn't really that mixed. Now suppose the State builds and runs hospitals as well?
Then the economy is getting even more mixed, with more Socialism, more state control.

Now, a country like the UK has currently got State Education and State Healthcare running alonside capitalist, private alternatives. It's a mixed economy.

Now, I have heard Americans on Youtube videos saying that Obama is a Communist, a Socialist and a Muslim. that he isn't even an American citizen. lets check some facts , shall we?
he was born in Hawaii. A US State when i went to school, and probably still is. if he were not allowed to stand for Prez, I am sure somebody would have told him so by now.

But is he a Communist? Evidently not - he has never advocated that all land , and all business concerns in America be turned over to State Ownership. So that claim is wrong . Period, as Americans might put it.

But, is he a Socialist? weell, how far does he want State control to go?
Are there State Schools in America? to that extent, he has got Socialist credentials.
To be frank, I think that Americans have been taking tax dollars to educate their kids for longer than most americans know.

Yet, State funded Education is a Socialist principle. Obama is therefore as much a Socialist as George Bush was. Not much, in other words. A country can only rid itself of the' taint' of Socialism when it can honestly say that the schools and hospitals are all privately funded. like thesewage system and the railroads. Thatcher said that in England "we buried Socialism". she lied. she cut it back, but never managed to kill it.
so long as the State controls any aspect of goods and services to the public, you have state controllled industry.

Now, as I have said before, the State can often run a good service. Nobody complains about the London Fire Brigade, nobody is running to buy up the sewers and even if they bought up the postal services, they would not be able to run a service to the outer hebrides and make a profit.

The best solution is a mixed economy. it is noteworthy that although Obama dragged thousands of people into the healthcare system in America, it is seems it's still funded by private insurance. it isn't truly socialist.

Comments

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Ah - glad to see that someone with a sufficient technical grasp of politics has come forwards.

Also, you know a lot more of the inner working of American Society than me , i will admit.

my assesment of him is purely on what I know of his healthcare reforms - and he has not brought everyone in , just expanded healthcare to many that The Free Market did not want to take care of at all.

i applaud him for that - he took the only advanced nation on earth to lack a social health system and gave it something better than it had under Bush - no mean feat. but , this of itself, does not extablish his credentials as a Socialist. Not in Britain anyway. you want to see what a socialist looks like, take a look at Harold Wilson...

Re: I'm not a birther but...

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

Meh. All those guys are Manchurian Fascists.

Think about Mount Rushbaugh. He's been even crazier ever since his stint in drug rehab. And we all know rehab centers are run by leftists, da? Clearly, there was some programming going on.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Read Bertrand Russell

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

that would be a representative government
my bad. when I said " do things2 , i don't mean just make laws , i mean do things as in providing services like healthcare, education, housing and suchlike for it's citizens.

We had an elected guvvermint in Queen Victorias day, but it did not get into Socialism. well, it did , but called it the 'Royal Mail.'

as for central planning - well, like i said, most govrnments have some . it can work in certain areas , and you would be hard put to find a country where the State relies totally on the Private Sector to do eveeryhing. Even in the US of A, you get 'public schools' and you mean they are publicly funed thru' taxation.

But yes, I agree that some societies are more socialistic than others and real Socialists wan to see more, not less State control and State ownership.

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

I'm content to rely on the dictionary definition that a half-dozen people have already posted to this thread. Why do you want to redefine it?

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Why?

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

"real life" tends to muck up almost any ideology one can imagine.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

He talks about how we all, of necessity, have our own sort of language and that words do not mean precisely the same thing for one as for the next. However, the utility of a precise language is great, hence why Russell was into Logic. In Logic definition and meanings are precise and there's great utility in being able to communicate and have my words and your words mean the same thing.

However, I would like to point out, that if you're gonna re-define socialism and call Obama it, it's quite misleading. It's like I re-define Nazi and then can call any politician I don't like the term.

In order for us to communicate, we must do what we can to understand the terms that others use--we should be all "lookit me! I'm makin my own meanings for words that people have been using for decades!"

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

Dada.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Pravda govoryu!

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

well, no.
i am quite ok with the idea that Socialism is a flexible term , but my main argument is that there is a real difference between Socialism and Communism , so they are not synonymous , as some ppl think.

Also, I want to say that in as much as someone lets kids get an education on the state, they are Socialists- but not so much as those who would provide public transport, subsidised housing , healthcare, etc.

No, thatcher did not bury socialism , but she was not so good a Socialist as Harold Wilson.

[blorky.livejournal.com]

re: 2 of the 2 largest employers - you're not even close to right. http://nyjobsource.com/largestemployers.html

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

Hey, buddy, this is the Internet. We speak American here.



except when we're looking up obscure crap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada#Origin_of_the_word_Dada

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Well, i tend to read dictionaries and think
"what the hell does that actually mean in real terms.

go read the OED on 'kiss' and you see what i mean . no way would you want to go and do that with a woman ... it sounds awful :)

[blorky.livejournal.com]

"Nationalized Higher Education funding." When the fuck did he do that? He eliminated banks serving as an intermediary, not eliminated the ability of banks to make college loans.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

OK, for the record, I pretty much agree, and I definitely don't think Obama can be a Socialist as President, whether he is personally, doesn't really matter to me :D There is no doubt in my mind he is a "big government liberal" but that more or less describes most of the dems in congress.

I do think it's important in a serious discussion to understand terms, but my point is that this is the internet, and most discussion aren't that serious, at least to some of us ;)

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Romanian origin? The word "da" is as Romanian as I'm Martian.

Re: But, but, but.......

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

No I actually think you're not.

You believe in the Spaghetti Monster. I know it. A bird told me.

Re: I'm not a birther but...

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

This I second.

What was her name?

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

(not sure if you have to be British, or an Early Beatle fan to get that)

All seriousness aside, It's funny (peculiar, not ha ha) when I first heard of the (flying) Spaghetti Monster, from my agnostic nephew, I was deeply interested (being as how I had spent a number of years in my youth studying theology). The thing I was soon to discover was that the majority of theologians and adherents were usually involved with non-perscriptive meds (aka recreational drugs). Since my drug of choice is nicotine I was never able to understand all the fine points of the belief, and soon had to discontinue my studies. While interesting, I figured one untenable position was all I was willing to invest myself in, and I find YEC to be vastly more believable, but I admit that's just me.

Re: What was her name?

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I prefer the cult to the flying teapot which presently orbits Saturn. If you've really been into theology you'll instantly get that. ;-)

[dukexmachismo.livejournal.com]

Yeah, yeah.

[magna-carter.livejournal.com]

I don't have a television.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

Figure of speech, hommes. Embrace figurativeness.

Re: But, but, but.......

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I have trouble knowing if you're being serious... I guess I have a hard time reconciling you with the 'howling at the eclipse and sacrificing a neighbor' crowd.