Free Will and Forward Planning

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

There are several problems facing Planet Earth right now, and Government really does need to govern.

When Americans look out across the oil slick in the Gulf of mexico and ask ' How come?', the informed answer that is coming back currently seems to be saying that BP ( British Petroleum or Biggish Pollution , dependent on POV) was in a very pally position with the US Guvvermint. Doing their own safety checks and working to a very watered down version of Safety Regulations, anyway, so I read in the Sunday Times.

British activists like myself have long regarded BP not so much as an ethical oil company, just as one of the least UNethical ones that we have had dealings with.

I sincerely apologise to any Americans out there for any damage this company has done to your economy and environment, and hope you get them to pay full costs on any and all damage done.
I also hope you realise that this is what will continually happen when you allow Big Business to ' regulate itself', 'Free it from red tape', or fall for any other sort of Snake Oil that they regularly try to use and british environmental activists have learned to view with extreme scepticism over the years.

The only way to run any company, especialy an oil one working anywhere near the water, is to have independent experts make the rules and have independent bodies checking that they are fully compliant. Otherwise, you get the mess we currently see along the US Coast rght now.

But, when it comes to individuals, a different dynamic is needed. Corporations oftenn have to be beaten into line with legislation. citizens have votes, and can be led, not driven, we feel.

People accepted that factories were only going to be open for 3 days a week in the days of the Heath government. there was plenty of coal, but poweer workers were on strike and black outs were frequent. so we had a 3 day week.

When it comes to recycling, many 20th century political parties Just Dont Get It. Labour councils have fined people for putting the wrong things in the wrong bags, or putting their bags out too late or too early.

Green councils have adopted the sceme where children bring paper, cardboard and other recyclables to school and sort them there into communal bins with adult assistance. kiids love to get involved, learn about the importance of recycling and nobody gets fined or coerced or sent to Gitmo Bay.

http://www.hackney.gov.uk/recycling_in_schools.htm

Greens see this 'community friendly' approach as the key to all its policies.
The Green Party in England and Wales is allied to, but not controlled by green parties elsewhere, so the Greens in the USA or Canada may differ from us on certain issues, but I would generally expect them to hold the same approach, unless you can show me different.

One of the most controversial schemes that has drawn criticism from some is British Green policy on Planned Parenthood. Again, I would say that some 20th Century political regimes like Communism just Didn't Get It, and thrust enforced sterilisation and single child families upon it's citizens.

British Greens note that when women in the UK were allowed access to contraception, they needed no legislation to compel them to use it. Likewise, when people made a fuss about aerosols damaging the ozone layer, it was not legislation, it was people 'voting with their feet' , or maybe I should say 'their cash' that put CFC cans in the bin and CFC free products on the shelves.

Fair Trade Coffee - its another scheme that Green parties favour, but banning the sale of Nescafe and making it's possession illegal was not possible, or even needed. Public oponion, once informed and mobilised, put Fair Trade products onto the supermarket shelves.

So, no - Greens are not the party of Draconian cutbacks, or compulsory serilisation, ethnic cleansing, or enforced depopulation - whatever anyone on the Right may tell tell you.

Yes, we say that WE have to reduce our consumption levels of oil and other fossil fuels, and that government intervention will be needed. and we as greens will lead from the front.
We propose to do this through raised taxation for big pollutors, and government grants and assistance for those who want to behave in an environmentally responsible fashion.

In practice, this means that -
you will get a government grant if you want to put a solar panel on your roof;

you will pay less purchase tax if you buy a very economic model when you get a new car, or fridge, or any other appliance and information will be a statutary requirement to let the consumer make an informed choice;

you will end up paying more if you choose to buy a gas guzzling, uneconomic model, that has high CO2 emmissions. The pollutter pays, but it's still your choice if you want to pay the price.

That's our platform and if we get elected, we will switch to PR by STV and will claim a public mandate for our policies. It is quite untrue to say that the Greens are not being straight with people, or that we will enforce draconian penalties to implement our policies. That is simply out of touch with Green philosophy.

Comments

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

This was getting interesting -- until I decided to see what's written under the cut.

Please, PLEASE stop the election propaganda, cut the manifesto-like speeches and let's have a decent conversation like person-to-person, rather than politician-to-folks.

You could start with substituting the "We think" with "I think", then you'll notice how suddenly your views have gained more weight. So far it sounds as if you're the spokesperson of a hive mind.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

So far it sounds as if you're the spokesperson of a hive mind.

Me thinks that the Borg got him :)

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

Don't get me wrong. His posts are great and he dissects issues that are worthwhile. What disturbs me is the way he presents it. I feel as if I'm reading a pre-election political speech of a party, so understand my distrust to such things.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

But the point is that someone has not said "Gerry is killing people2 -

It's "the Greens are killing people". Er, I happen to be one - and no, I'm not. We are not, even.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

Getting involved in politics invariably changes the person. Believe me, I know that. (I'm an exception heh he heh) :-)

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Yes yes, believing your the exception is usually the first step, mmhmm.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Ok , I actually like the idea of kids taking stuff to school and recycling it en masse. Camden in London actually found that recycling rose as a percentage doing it this way. and because I liked these ideas, I joined the Greens

So, what do you make of the idea? Of planned parenthood as a voluntery initiative?
If you want my take on Green issues - where do I differ from my Party? What am I going to be taking to Conference in September? - Sure, that isn't a problem.

But, looking at that, I find myself in a simila position. i am not kida like a Sports page reader. If something is worth talking about , I tend to have a stance on the issue or else I want to hear what its all about.

I have seen soccer matches on TV where the commentators have more or less summed up each side and been very neutral and not expressed a preference for either side - sorta like
"Well, City have got a good strong attack, they like to play it wide, and their striker has a great finish, but United's defence is unbeaten this season , they have seen off several strong clubs and their new midfielder is really coming on well as the season progresses - so it's hard to say who is going to win this afternoon".

Politically, I am not a floating voter these days. I mean, although i like David Cameron's style, and he has some good sensible ideas - I still would not vote for his party over mine. I dunno if that makes sense to you.

[ddstory.livejournal.com]

If you want my take on Green issues - where do I differ from my Party?

That self analysis is yours to make, not anyone else's; and besides, it's rather a matter of your personal blog if you ask me.

If something is worth talking about , I tend to have a stance on the issue

Then why always saying "we greens think that", or "greens would do this and this", instead of just saying what you think and would do on said issue?

By the way City may have a strong attack by they tend to tire in the last 15 minutes, so all United has to do is increase the pressure in the last stages of the game. Which they did, and they got their 94' goal. :)

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Camden in London actually found that recycling rose as a percentage doing it this way.

You're suggesting that recycling is a good idea... me I'm of the belief that recycling the way we're being coerced into isn't the best of options, just the most convenient to make big guvmint look good "Look wot we're doing" whilst not forcing anything to be done about the real problem "people want convenient packaging, no matter what the environmental costs, Big biz will provide"

It still irks me that Cabages, swede sprouts (Too many more to list) come with a natural packaging (The outer leaves), yet still when I buy one from a supermarket it's shrink-wrapped too, Hell veggies survive for their full growing cycle (Many in dirt ffs) yet "For cleanliness" by the time we get 'em they're covered in plastic ffs.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

is to have independent experts make the rules and have independent bodies checking that they are fully compliant. Otherwise, you get the mess we currently see along the US Coast rght now.

But I've seen first hand government bodies ideas of "Independence", it's BS and far from independent.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Do you make HMRI a good independant body or not?

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

Do you make HMRI a good independant body or not?

Can't say, I have absolutely no experience dealing with them, the Police complaints muppets and the wonderful appeals service however, are realy full of it, neither of them like it when you cast doubt on their independence either, they do however screw you further if you continue to ask q's regarding their "Independence"

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

In practice, this means that -
you will get a government grant if you want to put a solar panel on your roof;

I question the "Green aspects" of their manufacture and transportation cost on the environment personally, I'll put money on being able to make one, mostly from stuff people chuck away for less than half the price, almost as efficient and much greener as much will have been saved from landfill, Though I'll be able to give more info on that next year when I've tested my statement by trying it out on my shed (Once I've built the shed)

you will pay less purchase tax if you buy a very economic model when you get a new car, or fridge, or any other appliance and information will be a statutary requirement to let the consumer make an informed choice;

Sounds to me again, like you wish to screw the poor who can only afford the less efficient model;) Industries "Green credentials are very easily "Fixed" if you can do a little math, simply buy a small company with a high output of very green "stuff" and use it's parts in your own non-green manufacturing process.

CO² is remarkably easy to "Lose" btw, though the end result is a lot of O² and masses of carbon nanotubes, which if you do it the right way you can sell to any of the worlds armed forces, (It's gonna be big)

People accepted that factories were only going to be open for 3 days a week in the days of the Heath government. there was plenty of coal, but poweer workers were on strike and black outs were frequent. so we had a 3 day week.

I recon by forcing a maximum working week of 4 days, or 32 hours, and increase the min-wage to suit (I've never been a fan of min-wage, it was only good for governments benefits savings) we could very easily solve the unemployment "Problem" (it affects me too, too many unemployed drunkards live locally)


Green councils have adopted the sceme where children bring paper, cardboard and other recyclables to school and sort them there into communal bins with adult assistance. kiids love to get involved, learn about the importance of recycling and nobody gets fined or coerced or sent to Gitmo Bay.

I'd love to get in to these places and work out the figures for myself, stuff plastic recycling, bring back glass milk bottles only) (and sell meat/butter/cheese in greaseproof paper only), you get the idea. Hell I see no-one with old style shopping baskets these days, they say the population hasn't risen, yet the supermarkets are fuller and fuller every year, explainations welcome :)

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

The manufacture of everything is something we need to look at when we get into power.including solar panels. Too much stuff is made the wrong way, or packed with material that cannot be recycled, and that's just for starters.

As for ' screwing the poor' - well, we do advocate microcredit loans , government grants, a living wage, not the minimum that the present bunch think we all need to get by on.

in actual fact, we also want jobs to be shared more.
I think ( this is me talking , not the Green Manifesto, BTW) that work should be linked to welfare. like, if you are ablebodied, then before you go sign on for your dole money, you have got to show that you did X number of hours on the Community Welfare Sceme. If you are unemployed, not suffering from any handicaps, and you want benefits, then what's wrong with going out with a properly supervised team and doing a bit of street cleaning , or clearing derelict ground? Or cleaning the windows and doing a bit of gardening flower beds of the local park? I am not saying we use the unemployed to go in and be a strikebreaking task force, or get used as cheap labour, but somehow, we have got to stop people slobbing about all day and badmouthing people like me who pay for their beer and fags.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

what's wrong with going out with a properly supervised team and doing a bit of street cleaning , or clearing derelict ground? Or cleaning the windows and doing a bit of gardening flower beds of the local park?

Surely here, we run the risk of removing jobs from the "Paid employment list" and throwing them to the "Done by people who don't want to be there", for free? I'll accept the reasonning, but standard of this work is already low enough surely?

I don't know what it's like these days, but I was taken from unemployment at one time because I dared take 3 minor college courses simultaniously, (15 hour limit, 5 hours per course, They screwed me over and just stopped paying me because the times hadn't included homework) Now I'm seriously considering college again this year (simply to get my hands on a lathe and various other machine shop tools to give this project a jump start with regards to quality machined parts in the first instance, We'll see how that one goes, bet it won't be 2 weeks before they decide that if I can do a part time course, they'll suggest I'm fit enough to return to work, one cannot win :(

The problem as I see it is that there is work there, those who are really sick are forced to explain themselves and struggle to do so, aren't believed, those who aren't that sick generally have more time to practise their acting skills and have a part-time removals firm where their back doesn't cause too much grief on work days, system sucks.

As for ' screwing the poor' - well, we do advocate microcredit loans

pffft Micro-credit in this country? you'd be hard pressed to buy breakfast in a greasy spoon.

government grants, a living wage, not the minimum that the present bunch think we all need to get by on.

There's an interesting one, "Living wage", for where exactly? Took me 2 years (being a tad ill an all) to work out the best (read cheapest) places to shop in this area, many are impossible to get to in addition to the supermarket on shopping day (Fatigue hits hard doncha know) and now that the supermarkets have managed to kill all but the higher-priced (and often franchised) local stores, there's little affordable on the doorstep, tried that one last week, to avoid paying £4 in taxi fare to return with £25 of shopping! Thankfully the freezer was already 1/2 full.

but somehow, we have got to stop people slobbing about all day and badmouthing people like me who pay for their beer and fags.

Damned right, and stop their bloody dogs crapping all over all green areas :@, can we have a Dog warden DNA testing all poop seen in the streets/parks and have a Doggie DNA database too? then rehome the dogs with good people and shoot the owners? It'd solve 1/2 the problems already mentioned ;)

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

"You can't really understand another person's experience until you've walked a mile in their shoes."

...or however you would like to phrase this.

The goal of BP or any business, is to make profit. There is usually ambition to have larger success and this is measured by profit. They simply will not embrace the shackles of regulation or responsibility unless forced upon them or there is significant consequences.

It is Utopian dream to believe the government(s) and politicians within said government have pure hearts with only the best interests of the citizens they govern. It is much more complicated as they are tugged/influenced by many factors. The environment is just one of infinity.

Only with intense collective pressure will much chance. While the consequences are dire, it's not evident enough.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Yes, but the fact is tht we have not had a train accident on LUL since the 1970s , and the last time a fire happened on a station with fatal consequences was Kings cross in the 80s. That is down to regulation and enforcement.

You get enforcement if you drive to fast or run through a red light - and you ned to have the same rules for industry. maybe politicos don't like to lose business backer - but they should not have business backers. Lets make all Parties economically independent. then , maybe , the watchdogs will bite and not just bark.

i have worked in sales myself - I know that there are salesmen who lie and cheat to make the sale close. I can imagine that manufactureres will cut corners and all sorts of stuff if you let them, but we are the ones who pay for it in the end.

[rasilio.livejournal.com]

You proposed it yourself I believe when you proposed rationing at 60% of current oil consumption levels (I believe that was the number, 5 gallons per day down to 3 gallons per day) and yet the article said a mere 5% reduction in oil supplies could end civilization as we know it.

Rationing at the level needed to actually make a difference on either the environmental or availability fronts would cause the economic collapse and warfare that the doomsayer videos warned about.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

That's as silly as claiming oil is going to crash with a giant slurp.

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

Ok, here is my reasoning:-
I am 54 this year,a nd i have seen some pretty scarey situations.
but that waas long ago, when people behaved different than they do today.

Imagine you switched on the news on Monday morning , and it said that your factory, like every factory in your stae , was only gonna b allowed to open up and make things on Tuesay , Wednesday and thursday, every wekk for the foreseeable future, so that we can save power.

"power workers are on strike, so we are getting power cuts" says a government mnister's voice on the radio. hopsitals will run with Army generators on standby, but any business operation will get 3 days power a week. "

Well, what would you think, what would you do?


the thing is , i grew up in hard times - not as hard as yours, I don't think, bt enough to get me the sense that i was on my own and needed to look after me because no one else did.

When i was working a 3 day week , i was under 20 - most older guys than me had seen a real war - air raids, rationing. it was a picnic to them . Guys like me never got to panicking , our managers, our school teachers, they kept their cool we would therefore be ok.

Now, i have also lived through a fuel strike, about 10-15 yrs later. a lot of folks a bit younger than me about. Tanker drivers are not making deliveries. petrol stations running dry. police on the streets, not riots, but scuffles breaking out, arrests being made because a shop won't open. And this was not a long term situation . No gas for a week or so - but close to anarchy!

more worrying , people getting in cars and queuing. I mean , they just go to the shops, then the local fuel station , and top up the tanks. they keep the tank topped up on any possible chance.Because they are scared.

And this is a short lived crisis, but people are going to bits. we need to get some close calls in - something that will allow people to take a look over the edge , but will not be a permanent feature of their lives. let them get used to the idea that there may be tough times ahead. rationing, slowly introduced and gradually extended will perhaps enable the public psychology to get into the habit of being more self reliant.

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Imagine you switched on the news on Monday morning , and it said that your factory, like every factory in your stae , was only gonna b allowed to open up and make things on Tuesay , Wednesday and thursday, every wekk for the foreseeable future, so that we can save power.

You would first get riots. Then you would get 30-40% unemployment. Then more riots. Then a 5-10% minimum die-off. Depending on how long they hold out before giving in to economic reality.

About that blaming free markets thing....

[reality-hammer.livejournal.com]

First you admit that the Obama administration dropped the regulatory ball then you claim that BP was allowed to "regulate itself".

Which is it? As far as BP is concerned they passed all the government checks. They were not in an environment where there were no regulations (and thus the implicit responsibility of having to explain itself after an accident).

Meanwhile, Obama and his goons are failing to explain how and why this was allowed to happen under their oh-so-watchful administration.

Except that they meant they'd be watching all the lobbying money flow in!

Let's not forget the Clinton administration giving the go-ahead to BP buying up several US-based oil companies...with the condition that they had to reduce the overall number of gas stations. (And thus reduce price competition.)

You can't blame capitalism/free enterprise when corrupt government entities allow the game to be rigged.

Re: About that blaming free markets thing....

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

read carefully.
Obama's admin said "Ok - you go heck your rig regularly, ok?"
So some guy notices that a red light is flashing and they ougtta stop and fix it. Do they? Do they heck !

Allowing anyone to "regulate themselves" iis like asking student to mark their own papers. Who is to make sure that people don't cheat?

Allowing BP to "regulate itself" = "dropping the regulatory ball".

You can't blame capitalism/free enterprise when corrupt government entities allow the game to be rigged.
That's why you need more regulations - even the government oughtta be under the law and only allowed to work within it.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

Message to Sarah Palin and the teabaggers: How's that drill-baby-drill workin' for ya'?

[green-man-2010.livejournal.com]

LOL!!!