If you, don't often find billboards "immodest"

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

For years, the Hasidic Jews in part of Brooklyn have complained that the new bike lanes in their neighborhood are a major issue, " because of "women passing through here in that dress code. They were very upset about this and some community board meetings have been tense and filled with shouting. This community has also complained about billboards for "Sex and the City." And advertisements on buses. The standards of decency that apply in secular culture are not strong enough to keep their community from being constantly bombarded by images that they find inappropriate.



For some people, it would be tempting to just make fun of the Hasids and ride around in bathing suits and bikini tops in their neighborhood (which isn't totally "theirs" anyway, lot of people live there besides just Hasidic Jews.) Their request that people follow their dress code when passing through the neighborhood is, of course, absurd. I think most people would agree about that. Many people if you read comments about this story are deeply indignant about this aspect of the story. Some so much so that they went out on deliberately provocative "scanty clothes rides" They saw it as a freedom of expression issue, much like the participants in "draw Muhammad day." Needless to say, it only caused the conflict to escalate.

In response many Hasids became passive aggressive about the bike lanes, parking their cars in them, standing in them to block bikers. They also put pressure in the city. As a result the bike lanes were removed in 2009. If hipsters were not angered before, they were now. There were more nasty comments on blogs and angry comments at board meetings.

Then, action! Hipsters came under the cover of night and repainted the bike lanes. And so the saga continues. At the root of the rift between the communities is not just concerns about the bike lane or pretty legs-- it is fear of the neighborhood changing and of gentrification, I think.

The bike community in NYC has been trying to do outreach, sharing bikes, getting Hasids on bikes. And they found that there are people already in the Hasidic community who care about biking, they became more vocal. Making a bridge. It turned out that some of the people who helped re-stripe the lanes were members of the Hasidic community too. Proving that not all issues are easy, back-and-white or one-sided.

I don't know if it will work or not... but, I want to contrast the hipsters who have managed to get members of the Hasidic community on their side and on bikes, with those who mocked "those funny religious people" and flaunted their social codes of modesty when this issue first broke out.

Lastly, I want to talk about privilege. If you, don't often find billboards "immodest" then: Congratulations! You are in the majority of people whose sense of modesty is inline with what our culture chooses to enforce. But, try to keep in mind that these things are arbitrary. Think of how exposed you would feel if you lived in a place where fewer clothes were the norm, or how stifled you might feel if you had to cover up more. You could just as easily have been raised so you you would feel naked if your legs were exposed, or "stifled" if you couldn't feel the breeze between your legs. These things are learned and "our way" is not any better or worse than any other. When minority groups find themselves at odds with these norms, while it isn't often practical to accommodate their wishes, we can at least respect them and refrain from mockery or barbarically forcing people in to our idea of what is proper. To be explicit: we need not bike through Hasidic neighborhoods in bikinis, draw the prophet Muhammad over and over, put up a billboard with a lady in a skimpy dress across the street from the Mennonites, order women to strip out of hijab, say "Happy Easter" to a person you know damn well is an atheist who dosen't even like religion etc. etc. you get the idea. It's not hard.


We need to build bridges and mockery isn't a foundation for anything but escalating conflict.

Comments

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

I sympathize with the Hasids' efforts to maintain a different set of norms within their community, but that only goes so far. These sorts of values need to be flexible, or else you cant afford to live somewhere so pluralistic. In New York, non-compliance with your norms (and, yes, even some mockery of them) is pretty much a given.

Is it a good thing? Probably not, but it's an inevitable thing. Just as with 'draw Mohammed day', the more over-reaching your defense of your norms is, the more people are gonna push your buttons.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

but it's an inevitable thing.

Doesn't have to be.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

These sorts of values need to be flexible, or else you cant afford to live somewhere so pluralistic. In New York, non-compliance with your norms (and, yes, even some mockery of them) is pretty much a given.

That's the irony Hasids' live here since it is one of the most open places in the world and their odd ways are accepted and even celebrated among all of the other strange people of this city.

Now and then I guess they start wanting it to be like a small town. (though they do have a town in upstate new york. but I hear no one really like it there as much as the city.)

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

the more over-reaching your defense of your norms is, the more people are gonna push your buttons.

Yup. Its just like when one is teased as a kid or trolled on the internet. The more you protest, especially when over the top, the more people will go at you.

[luxinthemachine.livejournal.com]

This may make me sound like an asshole, but the fact that I should feel obligated to "cover up" because someone else may feel offended is deeply irritating to me. I am not saying I would deliberately try to upset someone by doing something flagrantly agitating and on purpose, but I don't feel as though I should have to accommodate people whose beliefs I do not share. This does not mean I should or would incite them out of anger, but that tolerance needs to extend in both directions. For example, I don't think it's right to put up a racy billboard in a community where the predominant demographic is Hasidic, but if I am on a bikini and I'm riding my bicycle and need to pass through this neighborhood, I think it would be absurd to ask I cover up.

That being said, and also in consideration of the fact that I am biased (an Atheist), there is something deeply agitating to me about religious people making demands on others based on their beliefs. It is intrusive. Everyone has the right, in theory, to live freely. You can't start making demands of people to "cover up" because the sight of a bare leg is offensive because of the way you were raised. There has to be a point where you rationally evaluate opinions. Not every opinion is valid - especially not those made on subjective beliefs. We all have our subjective beliefs, but we shouldn't expect others to organize their lives around our personal discomfort.

[hey-its-michael.livejournal.com]

Not every opinion is valid - especially not those made on subjective beliefs. We all have our subjective beliefs, but we shouldn't expect others to organize their lives around our personal discomfort.


Exactly. Too many people just don't get this.

[gillen.livejournal.com]

I tell ya, if it ain't the hayseeds it's the chasids.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Zing!

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

Think of how exposed you would feel if you lived in a place where fewer clothes were the norm, or how stifled you might feel if you had to cover up more.

The difference there is that no one is forcing the Hasids to dress a certain way. I like the idea that people are free to dress how they want whether that is a bikini or a full burqa, but no one is free to tell others what to wear. I really fail to see how you could even begin to keep from wearing clothes they don't like while biking through. What percent of the possible riders are even attending the meetings? What about new people or ones that simply don't care?

One of the main things living in a free society requires is that one put up with a lot of things that they find offensive. It is most often the people demanding that other adhere to their culture that are in the wrong whether it is France saying no hijabs or Hasids saying no bikinis.

Its nice they are talking, but I would venture that a number of people are still going to be upset about the 'immodesty' of the cyclists. And really has either side actually accomplished anything? From this story (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/04/where-the-religion-meets-the-road/39001/) it seems the guerrilla bike lanes are no more.

However unless it turns to violence or something like that they say an Everybody Bike Naked Though the Hasidic Part of Town Day is uncalled for.

And yeah this is probably more about parking and simple annoyance at bikes and bike lanes then the scantily clad thing.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

'And yeah this is probably more about parking and simple annoyance at bikes and bike lanes then the scantily clad thing. '

I'd venture that.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

Their alternative option would be to have ghettos - Hasidic families only - with gates at all entrances to keep gentiles out. Somehow I think that would also be offensive to them.

[torpidai.livejournal.com]

I was just about to suggest "Gated communities for all", hell I'm sure that'd work for crime rates too.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

A really interesting and thought provoking story, thanks for sharing.

Bottom line: What wouldn't people do to get a good ole drama? If they don't get it on TV, they create it for themselves. For teh lulz.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

Modesty isn't about what you wear, it's about how you act.

Please, hipsters....

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Please, hipsters (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Hipster#) are the plague of New York City. They're like an attack of the Boring Borg, sucking the life out of any area they move into.

What they're doing with generations of families in Chinatown is pretty horrible. (http://www.villagevoice.com/2010-04-20/news/when-hipsters-move-in-on-chinese-it-s-ugly/) Now yuppie families (those are hipsters that mated and have spawned) are moving into the Christopher Street area whining about gay businesses, and all that goes with it. It's not like these families didn't know what they were getting when they moved in. I figured when the hip boys and girls started migrating into Greenpoint and "North Brooklyn," things would get zany with the Hasidic community.

These families have been in some areas for generations now (due to discriminatory housing laws I would gather prior to the 1960s), so if they ask to have billboards removed that are offensive, that's ok with me. It's not like New York City is lacking for outdoor advertisements. It's sad when the New York Time's is going to Portland Oregon to find inspiration for articles about exciting city life. Patti Smith recently said if you are young, and want to be creative, don't come to New York City. Go somewhere else; she obviously doesn't consider hipsters to be creative.

Re: Please, hipsters....

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

Is the thing in Chinatown really the fault of the hipsters? Seems more a landlord trying to increase revenue by renovating a building and going after tenants who will pay more rent. Its not like the hipsters moved in and then started harassing the Chinese residents.

Hassid, please!

[drcruel.livejournal.com]

My friend makes the excellent point that, somewhere along the way, we've forgotten that we don't have the right to never be offended.

I'm not interested in sanitizing my life to suit someone else's tastes, and it hasn't escaped my attention that the crazy chain in any monothesitic religion ends with a bunch of bearded men restricting the rights of women. If these particular bearded men don't like to look at women on bicycles-or in bikinis, or on billboards, for that matter-they can turn their heads and mutter about how angry god will be.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

There is a principle in game playing that states the best policy is to "respond in-kind." That is, the response to a mode of behavior would be to retaliate with an equal but opposite mode. The bikini bike ride and draw mohammad are examples of this. If the other side escalates, you escalate, etc.

This may be offensive to some, but the fact is that for the most part it works. It works so well in fact, that it has been incorporated into most nations foreign and military policy. The result is to keep things balanced because one cannot make one sided demands without threat of repercussions. It forces one to be careful what one asks for.

In light of this your argument is that in your opinion the bikini bike ride and the draw mohammad actions were not an equal response. There are those who disagree. The bottom line however is: Which side came out ahead in the end?

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

I think this sums up Draw Mohammed Day quite well. The thing for me is that Draw Mohammed Day was a peaceful event in response to violence and it says the more violence you do, the more we will draw.

[bord-du-rasoir.livejournal.com]

I was very much on the side of South Park in the Muhammad episodes, I think because the target was the absurdity of cowering to threats. Draw Mohammad Day, however, rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed more difficult to contain and define. I understand the rationale that if millions of people draw Mohammad, they become too many to threaten, but the day seemed too difficult to distinguish from a "Let's hate on Muslims/Islam" day.

To be explicit: we need not bike through Hasidic neighborhoods in bikinis, draw the prophet Muhammad over and over...

Agreed. There's no need to be obnoxious.

When the issue of the bike lane came up in December in another community, however, I wrote this comment (http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_political/4835560.html?thread=291298280#t291298280). Basically, I don't agree with the removal of the bike lane because there is no good alternative route, even though prejudice is to sympathize with Hasids over hipsters.

If you, don't often find billboards "immodest" then: Congratulations! You are in the majority...

I hate to play the grammar nazi, but you repeat the you comma thing. Then, there are quotes around immodest. Then, the colon/exclamation combo just further solidifies the weirdness. It's like a parade of "fuck you" to proper grammar. I suppose a parallel can be made to your post, in that your grammar to my sensibilities is a bit like a biking hipster to a Hasid's sensibilities. Should you be required to change? No. Would it be courteous to wear pants and sleeves and eliminate crazy commas? Probably.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Well, that's basically everything I'd want to say, so "this".

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

In days of old a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking
Now, Heaven knows, anything goes!

Things change. Places change. Life is change.

I respect the Hasids opinion. Heaven knows I am hardly in the majority when it comes to matters of public or even private licentiousness amd I know what its like to be made uncomfortable by standards that the majority of Americans find acceptable. I also respect their efforts to work within the system to have the bike lanes removed. I respect that they want to maintain the character and values of their community. I even have a limited respect for their "civil disobedience" in parking in the bike lane, although I think they should be fined just like anyone else and be willing to take the punishment for breaking the law.

But you know what I respect most about the Hasids? To my knowledge they haven't called for anyones blood to be shed. No Rabbi has authorized the judicial murder of immodest bike riders. That is the difference. I don't agree with them, in fact I don't really like thier culture all that much, but I respect them because they respect my right to life.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

If the community had millions of members rather than just a few thousands someone one would have probably called for violence or crossed the line. I think it i more a matter of scale.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

My philosophy:

If you want to adhere to a certain dress code, then YOU adhere to that dress code. Modest? Dress modestly YOURSELF. Bold? Dress boldly YOURSELF.

However, don't tell anyone else how to dress. Not in the United States. Not in any secular nation (and yes, the USA is secular in government - get over it). If you don't like it when a woman isn't dressing herself head-to-toe in drab, concealing attire, GET OVER IT. Look somewhere else. You don't get to tell her how to dress. That's not up to you.

And in case anyone asks, no, I don't think "decency" laws in this country are constitutional. I have no problem with nudity. Apparently, neither does Vermont. I don't see why men get to run around on the hottest days of the year without a shirt while women are forced to "cover up."

I'm sorry (not really), but I believe in personal freedom up to the point where it doesn't hurt anyone else. I stand by that. Does my naked body hurt anyone? No, and don't pretend it does. If I walk naked down the sidewalk by your house, it doesn't hurt you. If you CHOOSE to stare and get upset, that's your choice. Think about that, and think about it carefully. It's your CHOICE to get upset over something that really doesn't impact you.

Likewise, it doesn't hurt me if YOU want to wear a muumuu, a nun's habit, a hajib, a veil, a clown costume, a housedress, the back-end of a horse costume, a bikini, or nothing at all.

These are my opinion; yours may differ.

[korean-guy-01.livejournal.com]

wah wah privilege yawn USA is a free country

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I think you misunderstood this post, if not completely, mainly.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

Just as a humourous aside -- how is the girl in the picture going to stop?

Her bike doesn't seem to have any brakes anywhere in view and she's wearing heels (to skid to a stop in??).

Just wondering.... heh...

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-gear_bicycle

[bananafish42.livejournal.com]

They should get Modesty Police like they have in the Me'ah Shearim neighborhood (and others, I think) in Jerusalem to harass those women. Oh wait, this is AMERICA.

And these "officers" aren't afraid to use physical assault too. Cause you know, it's cool to touch a girl if she's acting like a whore. Look what your immodesty is making me do! I can't control myself! God will understand.

[kinvore.livejournal.com]

On a semi-related note, how does this compare to bans on head scarves?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

As a male, I recommend full nudity for all women, to be safe, under the age of 45.
Yup. I'm an age-ist.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

These are the guys that throw acid into women's faces in Israel because they wear jeans. Boo fucking hoo that their feewings are hurt. This is the Western world, and these people can man up and accept secularism just like everybody else.

[luxinthemachine.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I find it more offensive that there's anti-abortion advertisements (with religious overtones) on public buses for plenty of reasons - and I think all patriots would see what I mean here.

Tough shit.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

This is New York City: it is diversity and variety incarnate.

Don't like it?
Move somewhere else, so you can control what you're exposed to.
Like the Amish.

Re: Tough shit.

[futurebird.livejournal.com]

This community has been in NYC much much longer than most-- they aren't "new" to the city they have been her since forever and have helped in some ways to make it what it is today.

I don't think "don't like it move" -- is a reasonable response even though I see no way to honor their request for people to follow their dress code.

Really, it's phrases like "Love it or LEAVE it!" that I think fail to move the debate to resolution. The point I;m trying to make is no about manners in a=many ways.

To Refrain from Bull-shitting...

[zen-monk.livejournal.com]

This discussion reminded me of when my Ethics class was doing a segment on cultural relativism.

Feel free to correct whatever error I may imply in regards to cultural relativism:

A cultural relativist would say that because this is a diverse world with various beliefs and cultural lifestyles, a person must respect the fact that what that person believes may not line up with the practices and views of others and to insist that that person's one view is right way of living is pretty much an invalid claim because of how many groups of people have their own set of lifestyles they believe to be correct.

That is not to say that a cultural relativist would, though some may try, say that something like the Civil Rights movement in America was in some ways subverting an established culture in America where it had been the norm to separate ethnic groups and that the creation of this country was in fact built on the subjugation of ethnic minorities. Not so, cried the CR, as the United States of America was established with a certain set of beliefs already in mind, for example the Bill of Rights and The Constitution, which proclaims all men created equal (with women sensibly included later) and that what Civil Rights leaders like Martin Luther King, Jr. were doing was to enforce what the USA originally believed in. A CR would also state that if one were to be unhappy living in a society due to what that individual felt and privately believed in, that individual can move to another area where that one can express himself more clearly, e.g. if you are homosexual and you are in a community that refutes your existence and believe you to be "all wrong," by all means go somewhere where that society can say that what you are is normal and fine.

One of the arguments against cultural relativism, however, was that the sense of what could be considered right or wrong is hand-waved away by saying that what one group does is neither right nor wrong by other standards because it's practiced in a different culture with its own standards of right or wrong.

An anthropologist, Carlyn Fluehr-Lobban, wrote an article called "Cultural Relativism and Universal Rights" using examples of female circumcision in Sudan and "honor" killings of sisters and daughters accused of sexual misconduct in some Middle Eastern and Mediterranean societies as how although those would be approved within their own culture and region, they are still a pattern of cultural discrimination against women. She wrote, "Cases of genocide may allow the clearest insight into where the line between local culture and universal morality lies... Other practices that harm individuals or categories of people (such as the elderly, women, and enslaved or formerly enslaved people) may not represent genocide per se, and thus may present somewhat harder questions about the morality of traditional practices. We need to focus on the harm done, however, and not on the scale of the abuse. We need to be sensitive to cultural differences but not allow them to override widely recognized human rights."

From this argument, it can be seen that I support Fleuhr-Lobban's argument against what CR holds, and I wouldn't disagree on it. I suppose when one is bicycling down a lane that that person should wear whatever is most comfortable, whether it be jeans and a t-shirt or a bikini and a sarong. But I feel that the insistence of some individuals who chose to bike down a conservative community while wearing a skirt or whatever that is considered "scandalous" and that they know that this community would be offended by them doing so, is considered spiteful and mean-spirited. If there are members within the community who wish to change their views on decency, then it's a dispute that should be resolved in their own community. I don't think that parading down a street wearing whatever one feels like it because of "freedom of expression" would help the cause for change at all, as it would only reinforce the community's feeling of being defensive.

And honestly, why bike in swimwear and bikinis? How can that be comfortable? I can understand shorts, but see, those can bunch up, too. Skirts of any length are just as much trouble to worry over and the wind chill can go through a bikini.