Because we haven't talked about Iraq enough...

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

This came up on my friend's page this morning.

followed by this .

When Rupert Hamer, the British journalist who served as the Sunday Mirror's war correspondent, was embedded with US forces in Afghanistan and was killed when an IED took out the MRAP he was traveling in, nobody seemed to give much of a shit. No general outcry, no "Those murderers!", no wailing and gnashing of teeth from blogs as different as Balko and BoingBoing.

But when a Reuters journalist is embedded with insurgents in Iraq who are approaching US armored vehicles while armed with weapons specifically designed to destroy such vehicles, and is engaged and killed in their company by a gunship crew who follows rules of engagement and directly asks for permission first, a whole bunch of people just about wet themselves in their eagerness to decry those who killed him.

Why is this?
-"Phanatic"

I have my own take behind the cut but I'm curious about what others have to say.


There is no discernible difference in my eyes, both were killed in action.

The responses to this incident reminds me of the Joker's monologue from "Dark Knight".

Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, it's all "part of the plan"...

...But if one of our Soldiers "The Good Guys", blows up a journalist everyone loses their freaking minds.

An american helicopter crew spotted a group of men gathering near an american convoy.

Weapons are clearly visible, 2 RPGs and a Light Machine-Gun. The standard AQ fire-team everywhere from Afghanistan to Chechnya for the last 15-20 years. Since the insurgents don't wear uniforms this armament and organization is the single best identifier.

They reported the situation and waited for permission to engage.

The enemy was defeated. Additional Insurgents attempted to extract the wounded before they could be captured but in doing so exposed themselves to American forces and were defeated as well.

This is war.

Support it, or oppose it, I won't judge.

All I ask is that you be intellectually honest about it.


Disclamer:
I am an Iraq War vet, and a helicopter crewman to boot, so this story hits a little close-to-home for me.

Edit:
In the interests of "citing sources" here is CENTCOM's official report on the incident.

Comments

[merig00.livejournal.com]

An american helicopter crew spotted a group of men gathering near an american camp.


Correction: An american helicopter crew spooted a group of men gathering 200 meters away from an american army and iraqi police convoy which is engaged in firefight, during a day long operation of clearing a sector of Baghdad from insurgents.

P.S.#1 Get ready for "evul baby killers make inappropriate comments to each other which clearly indicates how much they enjoy killing little children"

P.S.#2 Fix link.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

Fixed.

Get ready for "evul baby killers make inappropriate comments to each other which clearly indicates how much they enjoy killing little children"

I am.

[usekh.livejournal.com]

You mean like watching a dying man crawl away and begging him to go for a weapon so they can kill him?

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

"evul baby killers make inappropriate comments to each other which clearly indicates how much they enjoy killing little children"

"How can you shoot women and children?"

"Easy, you don't lead them as much."

It can't be that

[papasha-mueller.livejournal.com]

one was Brit working for British Sunday BS, can it ?

[allhatnocattle.livejournal.com]

[merig00.livejournal.com]

How about posting full version of 30+ minutes instead of this edited one?

Ooh and

[ryder-p-moses.livejournal.com]

So, even taking some of the bullshit spin as read, what's the argument here, the multitrillion-dollar science-fiction super-fast-super-clean-super-soldier vanguard of the New Good War can't be held to a higher standard of operations than some God-crazed dirt farmers wiring together bombs out of old mortars that didn't explode right when the Soviets dropped them on their huts? Actually holding the guys who sold this war and stand to gain from it to their wild claims about precision strikes and moral warfare in a blog is unfair?

Oh you poor poor baby.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

It is.

No matter how advanced the weapons, or how extensive the training, people are fallible. It is easy to sit in judgement after the fact but the "Clean War" is a myth. We're blowing people up for fuck's sake, emotions will run high, and people will get hurt.

There is a reason that the word "Snafu" orignated in the Army, likewise the word "Fubar".

I'm not trying to condone one side over the other, I'm simply saying that "Shit Happens".

[paft.livejournal.com]

s: ..But if one of our Soldiers "The Good Guys", blows up a journalist everyone loses their freaking minds.

First of all, yes, when an unarmed and injured man is blown away along with the people trying to assist him, it's an issue. Because you see, we are supposed to be "The Good Guys" and that is supposed to mean more than merely the fact that our soldiers wear American uniforms and speak English.

Second, the killing of unarmed journalists has been an issue since this war began and the Palestine Hotel, (which American forces had been told was filled with journalists), was deliberately fired on by an American tank, killing a couple of reporters. And then there was that Al Jazeera reporter we killed when we dropped a bomb on their radio station.

You know. -- little things like that that make the term "The Good Guys" sound like a mockery.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

Interesting thing that you brought up Palestine Hotel. You know why it was shelled? Cause one of the journalists decided to take a picture of the tanks passing by on the street. As in this case with reuters reporter, pointing long tube-ish objects without warning and identification at tanks, humvees, gunships and people with weapons in general - not the smartest idea. One of the tank crews noticed a guy up on the balcony aiming something that looks like an rpg at them, turned the turret and fired.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Pffttt....remember this a war. The only good guys are the ones that win, and sometimes not even them if they don't get to write the history of the war.

[mrbogey.livejournal.com]

To get the full comedic effect it's best to watch the video while Yackety Sax plays. Fucking hilarious.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

The reason we're in Afghanistan is because those assholes do kill people. We don't get pissed about it because we're already pissed they attacked us.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

The 'issue' here isn't that people only get outraged when we do something wrong, but that you only notice people get outraged when we do something wrong.

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

I think part of being the good guys means you intently question stuff like this. The reason every single democracy has civilian control of the military is because the military exists to kill people and blow shit up and that is what they are good at and that is what they tend to see as the solution to problems. Civilian control allows a society to restrain and target that power in ideally moral and restrained ways.

So while I agree that these soldiers had reason to do what they did, I also think that there is nothing wrong with investigating and questioning this kind of stuff.

I would much rather a public that is horrified at what the military has to do then one that could care less.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

good point!

I have a question. I know you can't have a direct answer to it but still interested in your opinion. I'm wondering why to release a 3 year old pretty much non-story since the video was shown to Reuters representatives, Washington Post journalist published a book in which he describes the incident almost by a second, there was army investigation and investigation of army investigation and overall as you said these soldiers had reason to do what they did. Why not instead release or draw attention to videos (they are out there even on youtube) of clear violations by our troops. Is it just because this one is a "high profile"?

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Nobody gives a damn if the Taliban blows up some of out-of-shape journalist from London because, y'know, the Taliban are the *bad guys* who blew priceless statues up for shits and giggles. These guys were the ones that took over most of a country ruled by established thugs because they were much worse than the other guys. Nobody expects otherwise. Particularly with agents of the Great Western Empire.

The guys fighting "to bring civilization" on the other hand.....

[merig00.livejournal.com]

I think it's also so because there's a gap between what people believe our weapons and soldiers should be capable of and reality.

[thies.livejournal.com]

[merig00.livejournal.com]

Cannon?

[meus-ovatio.livejournal.com]

I have my own take behind the cut but I'm curious about what others have to say.

It was a mistake and failure.

The only issue is whether or not people should be "morally outraged" and then everyone can argue about whether or not they should be "morally outraged", and then we can carry on with the circus of self-righteous politics and anger mercantilism.

Nobody gives a shit about the reporter. They give a shit about being better by their reaction to it.

[paft.livejournal.com]

Speak for yourself, bub.

[paft.livejournal.com]

Deliberately targeting and firing on an obviously wounded man and the people trying to help him goes waaaay beyond unavoidable "collateral damage."

[kardashev.livejournal.com]

I saw what appeared to be some rifles on some of the men in the first part of the video, so they were most likely insurgents. In the part where the van got plowed, I saw a man trying to aid one of those insurgents. I would not have known he was a journalist. I also saw two children in that van. I honestly might not have noticed them if they weren't pointed out. I'd be even less likely to notice them if I were there in the heat of battle(although my take on that has a caveat in that I'm not a trained soldier). It looks like a "fog of war" kind of mistake to me.

But having said that, I'd still like to see us finally wrap things up and bring the troops home from Iraq.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

Could also have been security guards for the reporters, but yeah.
What you said.

[mrsilence.livejournal.com]

Couple of points

1. Personally I don't blame the helicopter pilots, they did their job correctly and to the best of their ability. That this reporter died unintentionally because they misidentified him and he became "collateral damage" is clear and not their fault.

2. The fault for this mans, and the many others like him lies with the government and the military top brass who decided it was a good idea and committed the troops there in the first place, who could of or should have foreseen that such deaths would occur.

2. We expect the bad guys, militants etc etc will kill innocent people who don't deserve it. We know that's going to happen. But getting angry and shouting abuse at them, unlike shouting at your own government or yoir own military officers, who have covered it up to make themselves look good, is absolutely pointless. So the question of what to do about it, in either contrasting case, is different.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

See I'd agree completely. The only part I don't get is cover up. Reuters representatives saw the video. The Washington Post reporter embeded with that infantry unit we saw on the video describes that event to a second in his book. Doesn't look like much cover up to me.

That's why I'm shouting at WikiLeaks for bringing up this non-story to boost their PR and donations instead of trying to discuss real bad cases and by that diminishing public's sensitivity to the issue.

Because this new one is being used as propaganda, pure and simple.

[squidb0i.livejournal.com]

Two links proving my claim.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7928/90016369.jpg
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c1b_1270800204

You can even see enough to dispute wikileaks claim on their own longform 40 minute (but still edited) video available on their own site:
http://www.collateralmurder.com/

But most people only see the 17 minute hitpiece.

"propaganda-dot-com" (c)

[papasha-mueller.livejournal.com]

Re. the imageshack link.

1. The first pic, saying it is AK-47. Given the quality of the image, it can be anything including the Fox Run kitchenware. The way it is presented - "it almost definitely is" speaks of itself - remove this tag, nobody knows wtf was that.

2. The second pic, labeled as RPG-7. RPG-7 is 15 lbs gear, you can't handle it like shown. You take it by the handle or in the balanced middlepoit, you don't wave it like iron club. Fortunately, we have a video, not still here and you can compare WYS with WYG 'normal' dynamics of carrying a heavy weapon.

Now. You point out that a fight is taking place in close nearby.
I personally find it strange that who is announced as armed insurgents are not taking part in it, but just mind their own business, hanging around, chatting with the reporters, giving interviews, taking no care of GIs proximity and showing no single sign of alert.

I ask myself - why, if they come to insurge, why bother with the reporters, if the come to pose for photo why this dangerous zone was chosen for it.
I see it as they're just locals belonging to this place interacting with the reporters in what they think is out-of-fire area.

It's not that I'm taking this or that side, I'm just pointing you to the weak points in your arguments, FOC.

[eracerhead.livejournal.com]

This was a mistake, and mistakes often have huge consequences when the potential for lethal force is involved.

The main question is, what policies and procedures were in effect and were they followed? If so, we need to improve them. If not, then disciplinary action needs to be taken.

Some ancillary questions are:
Why was this incident not made public and is that part of SOP?
What would have happened had this video not become public?
When have similar incidents occurred and what was the outcome?

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Why is this?

Cause he was killed in someone ELSE's country.

[sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com]

at least that is an answer.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

but in doing so exposed themselves to American forces and were defeated as well.

And their kids too!