I, For One, Welcome Our New Cephalopod Masters....

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I just want an excuse to post a brutally cool video:

Watch on YouTube

However, it does raise a few interesting questions -- the octopus under study doesn't merely make use of the coconut shell as a hermit crab uses another shell for shelter. The octopus actually selects shells, cleans them out and then carries them with them in anticipation of an abstract need for protection from a not yet present threat.

Pretty damned sophisticated behavior and likely learned recently rather than programmed into instinct.

So a few questions:

1) Is this definite indication of sentience and intelligence?
2) What IS intelligence in the sense that we use it to describe ourselves as unique animals?
3) Does the existence of an invertebrate that demonstrates problem solving intelligence complicate our general relationship with animals?

Amendment: Question 3A: Does the recognition of problem-solving intelligence that thinks abstractly about time and space in another species give additional creedence to the arguments of the animal rights movement?

And for the science fiction fans in the audience:

What are the chances that human beings may some day be "out evolved" by another species of animal?

Bonus question: Am I in big karmic trouble for my love of takoyaki?

Comments

[thies.livejournal.com]

selects shells, cleans them out and then carries them with them in anticipation of an abstract need for protection from a not yet present threat

how does that differ from what hermit crabs do?

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

The hermit crab doesn't carry the shell along with it and then use it only when it detects danger -- the hermit crab is looking for a shell to use at all times.

[bord-du-rasoir.livejournal.com]

hermit crab shell = instinctual
octopus coconut shell = learned behavior

Hermit crabs don't really have the choice. In a way, the octopuses are making a choice.

[chessdev.livejournal.com]

1. Absolutely that would indicate sentience and intelligence. It's an anticipatory concept which indicates
awareness of self, awareness of danger to self, future need, a sense of time, and even recognition of vulnerability (why it "runs" while carrying the shell).

2. Good question - don't have a good answer

3. Sadly no.

and finally,

what are chances human beings will be "out evolved"? ZERO unless there is some catastrophe on a global scale.
Out technological advantage is too heavy to be 'out evolved' in nature right now.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

There's a bonus question now.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

LOVECRAFT WAS RIGHT

(well except for the silly racism bullshit)

I'd like to be under the sea...

[pastorlenny.livejournal.com]

No, Ringo was right!

[soliloquy76.livejournal.com]

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I don't really see how they can prove yet that this isn't biologically adaptive behavior opposed to something it learned.

But don't worry, we're descended from apes, we'll go to war with an exterminate any animal that starts getting too smart long before it poses a threat.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I think the question is that they've never witnessed this behavior before, so if it is functioning off of instinct, it's the emergence of a new one.

Odds are this is learned which means some really smart ass octopus figured this out first.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

We are not so much descended from chimpanzees as we are a close cousin to them. A close cousin that eradicated our closest relatives from existence which makes us the last of our genus and of our evolutionary lineage, for that matter. But still....we did not evolve from any living ape, the one we did evolve from has been extinct for at least 200,000 years.

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

One key arguement for it being learned is that the shells come from human settlements on the coast. The octopuses cannot open them by themselves and its unlikely that enough cracked ones would wind up in the sea to spur a biological adaptation.

That makes me think that they learned it. Now they may have some wiring to seek defense, but that does not make the whole thing instinctual any more a general desire for food makes any attempt to get that instinctual.

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

This is very interesting, but unfortunately i cant see how it is related to politics (even remotely).

I'm afraid i'll have to remove the post. I didnt do it right away out of respect for malasadas.

Awaiting the approval or disapproval of at least 1 more "colleague". Currently the score is: "For deletion" - 1, "Against deletion" - 0.

Of course you could amend the post to make it at least somewhat politics related, in which case it might stay. I really dont want to remove it...

Other thoughts?

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

How about an implied link to animal rights politics in question 3?

[policraticus.livejournal.com]

Very cool. Octopi are famous for exhibiting sophisticated problem solving skills, escaping aquariums, etc.

1) Intelligence, in various forms, is an obvious trait in many animals. Sentience, in the way humans understand it, is a more problematic and might be beyond our ability to test.
2) Intelligence is just the ability to solve problems. What makes humans unique is our level of problem solving and our ability to think abstractly in both time and space.
3) I don't see how it would. Tako sushi is still delicious.

I don't know if we will ever be "out evolved" in the sense that a species will directly compete with us and drive us to extinction. We have a pretty big head start. But if we fail to evolve, then the chances of another species taking are place are 100%.

It is never a bad time to enjoy this:

[xforge.livejournal.com]

"Woohoo, I'm out!!"

"Now what do I do, I'm on land and without buoyancy I'm just a blob of seafood."

[gunslnger.livejournal.com]

1. Intelligence and sentience are not the same thing and probably not even related, other than that a sentient being is likely to be intelligent. So, the octopus is displaying intelligence but not sentience.

2. Some use "intelligent" to describe us when they mean "sentient".

3. Nope.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

1) Yes, but then dolphins and other cetaceans are intelligent lifeforms, they simply don't have the wherewithal to use tools.

2) In terms of Homo sapiens it refers to a refined capacity to use language, extraordinarily large social groups (modern ethnicities can number in the millions, and the size of just the Han Chinese ethnicity alone is bigger than the entire human population of the Classical Age), and highly refined use of and dependence on tools both organic (domesticated animals) and technological.

3) Not especially. We kill loads of other sapient lifeforms every year in fishing trawlers and use the African apes, which are also intelligent lifeforms as well for experiments outlawed for use in human beings. Intelligent cephalopods won't matter jack.

Bonus-Slim to none at present. At present humans are the single most successful type of ape to have ever existed, we've expanded our range everywhere that is habitable (Antarctica is the sole exception at present aside from a few Pacific Islands) and have also eradicated our closest evolutionary relatives.

Now, if we talk of Deep Time, it is possible that a future type of sapient lifeform could evolve that would outpace us. It is also possible that we could potentially evolve into descendant forms of life much as Homo rhodesiensis evolved into Homo sapiens which would displace us globally as we displaced Neanderthals, Erectus, and the Hobbits.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

3A) Not really. There's pretty conclusive evidence the cetaceans are intelligent, and that does not take into account the Great Apes, either. None of that particularly affects either the local peoples who live near the Great Apes or the ones that depend on whaling to feed themselves.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

I posted a while back to this very topic, albeit in a different way--if our being more intelligent lets us off some moral hook for eating animals for food simply because they're less intelligent, what will happen when more intelligent aliens land here and could possibly see us as a food source (the Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man"). I remember policraticus pretty much arguing (as expected) like he did here "What makes humans unique is our level of problem solving and our ability to think abstractly in both time and space," (OK, I don't know if experts would agree with that, but take at face value here) the issue is that some biologists HAVE shown this in some animals.

What are the chances that human beings may some day be "out evolved" by another species of animal?

Slim to none until Mother Nature removes us from the equation, just like the dinosaurs. And when it happens it will be a cosmic one-two punch thing e.g. a gamma ray explosion from a nearby star, and what do you know, it turns out Earth is looking down the rifle bore of a binary star (Wolf-Rayet) that's expected to release a huge gama ray explosion when it supernovas. Personally, I think climate change and a rather unusal epidemic will finish us off, or certainly reduce us to an almost pre-Industrial revolution world long before any GRB.


The deathstar Wolf-Rayet

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

Honestly, if we encounter some galactic intelligence next to which our minds are like the minds of chickens to us, I would be okay with that intelligence consuming us.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

So? I have the same instinct in Super Mario World. It doesn't matter if I actually have something I want to throw it at.

If I'm not carrying a shell, why not? Are there any Koopas around I can steal one from?

[mijopo.livejournal.com]

"pending for deletion" tag, FTW!

[abomvubuso.livejournal.com]

Ah, sorry i was late to remove the tag as the problem seemed to have been resolved (see above).

[evildamsel.livejournal.com]

I'll think about the other questions later but as far as animal rights, octopi might be evolving and obtaining sentience or not, but if you have ever met a cow or a chicken, you should know it'd be a cold day in hell before we have to worry about them attaining any kind of brainmatter.

[sgiffy.livejournal.com]

1) Is this definite indication of sentience and intelligence?

Sentience is a philosophical minefield. It does indicate intelligence especially more complex reasoning such as being able to see an object, extrapolate how it might be beneficial to solving a problem, then adapting the object to that.


2) What IS intelligence in the sense that we use it to describe ourselves as unique animals?

I think what makes us unique is the ability to run then through in our minds. We can remember the past and consider alternate course of action, we can imagine the future and the consequences of our choices. A big part of this is symbolic thinking and general reasoning. Not sure its unique in anything except degree.

3) Does the existence of an invertebrate that demonstrates problem solving intelligence complicate our general relationship with animals?

Not really. I mean we value intelligence because we have it and its our prime means of survival. Now we may have hopes of communicating with animals with similar intelligence to our selves, such as chimps and maybe even octopuses and that is interesting, but not really relevant for ethical purposes.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Meh--other animals use tools, I find this un-exciting. Sorry.
Glad you find it exciting though.

And just to pick a nit: everything that is currently alive today is equally evolved; evolution takes place over time.

Dogs, cats, humans, apes, rats, birds--if we are alive today, we are equally evolved**. I don't fear being "out evolved" given the scale of time we are talking about.

What are the chances that humans will eventually go extinct and a different species will be the dominant species on earth?
I'd say nearly certain. But not one of us will live to see it.

**(although, sometimes I wondered about certain "fraternity" brothers during my undergrad)

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

I would add to this that evolution =/= to X-Men supah powahs. Evolution simply means whatever makes more babies is selected for. In the case of the bipedal apes that was a wimpy physique with a swollen forehead in comparison to our relatives. The meek have indeed inherited the Earth. Heh.

[duckspeaker.livejournal.com]

"What are the chances that human beings may some day be "out evolved" by another species of animal?"

Well you don't have to worry about it anytime soon.
I mean seriously..."out evolved"? That would be so far in the future (evolution takes a lot of time) that everything you know will be long gone.

[a-new-machine.livejournal.com]

And it would require that humanity somehow stopped adapting to its environment, or somehow adapted more slowly.

That reminds me...

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

... of an experiment to hook up electrodes to a snail and teach it through the probes. I joked that the snail was able to learn faster and react more quickly than the president of the day (the one before Obama).

The sad part of the human condition is how little of our capability we actually use. Most people are conditioned and cultivated to the level of the typical sheep.