A question.....

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Is it always a good thing for a hegemonic power to break down? When the USSR broke up a lot of people were expecting good things to come from it. Instead Russia's more or less returned to dictatorship, most of the smaller former SSRs are dictatorships and/or mired in ethnic conflict, and there's the issue of what happens with the Russians the Soviet government had the desire to colonize non-Russian lands with it. Yet the USSR and its Romanov predecessor were hardly the most benevolent governments that have ever existed. Then there's Habsburg Austria and Austria-Hungary, which did a damn sight better ruling even the Austrians than its successor states have done. There's also the Ottoman Empire, which provided about 6 centuries of peace in the Middle East prior to its dismemberment. The USA, Canada, and Mexico establishing three imperial states has pretty much stifled feuding here on the Continent.

Yet what I don't understand is that some people at least appear to be enthusiastic about national self-determination, which is the root of the ills of places like Yugoslavia and the root of things like the Azeri Genocide and the Rwandan Genocide. So....which is better? A functional but somewhat-repressive multiethnic state or a nation-state democracy that gets that way after it ruthlessly exterminates all minorities it can and expels the ones it can't?

Comments

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

I have a Bulgarian friend who would not agree with you.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Except Bulgaria was never part of the USSR or the historical Russian Empires. Bulgaria was also responsible for a bloody ethnic cleansing of Turks, which in any case does not matter because we all know Muslim lives are worth less than Christian ones. /snerkgrowlmutternsnarl.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

Bulgaria was a puppet state controlled by the Soviet Union. My friend was in the military and took part in Warsaw Pact exercises. He said the Russian troops treated Bulgarians like crap; he and everyone in his unit despised the Russians. His father was murdered for holding moderate nationalist views in the Communist Party.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Yes, it was a part of the Warsaw Pact. That does not change that my original post was relating to the former USSR and the 15 or so states that replaced it, not the Warsaw Pact states. If I wanted to get into that mess my post would have been TL;DR.

[devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com]

Okey dokey.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

As a Bulgarian, my imput might have some value, I suppose.

That said, Bulgaria was widely regarded as the '16th USSR republic' both by Russians and Bulgarians. Todor Jivkov even actually applied for USSR membership, but he was told to fuck off. Our history of servility is very long.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Bulgaria was also responsible for a bloody ethnic cleansing of Turks

What??? Are you sure? Source please? Are you sure you're not confusing the country here, or just talking out your ass? Do you have any idea of the relations between Christians and Muslims here in Bulgaria?

If you're referring to the pitiful attempt of Todor Jivkov to change the names of the Turks in the mid 80's, that's far from the blood ethnic cleansing which the Ottomans systematically performed on Bulgarians for the duration of well over 500 years. It's a whole miracle that there are still 7 million Bulgarians existing today, and another 7 million abroad. But the even bigger miracle is that, despite all that the Turks have done here, and with the exception of that short 2-year period in the 80's when Jivkov tried to take a small revenge by forcefully assimilating part of them and expelling the other part back into Turkey, the relations between Turks and Bulgarians in Bulgaria have been exemplary. They even have their own ethnic party (ethnic party!) which has participated in governments for the last decade and a half. Go figure.

So next time before you throw allegations, please get your info straight first.

[mahnmut.livejournal.com]

I've lost my trust in underlankers' historian credibility a long time ago. Nowadays I realize he's just been playing devil's advocate for the sake of debate. Such an approach is of little value, I admit, but he has had some nuggets of pure LOLZ, I'll give him that.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't be so extreme about it but I guess there are areas where you can really catch him off-guard.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Well, Bulgaria was once a heavily Muslim area prior to its few elements that wanted a nation-state inventing one and attempting to exterminate all who did not fit. I'm referring to the 19th Century Bulgaria that went from a majority-Muslim society to a majority-Christian society in a way that was far from peaceful.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

The idea of a Bulgarian nation was invented? A majority-Muslim society? Attempting to exterminate?

Really, dude. You lost me. You have no idea what you're talking about. I would've directed you to some sources, but unfortunately (for you), they're in Bulgarian. Keep living in your delusions, and among your books.

[htpcl.livejournal.com]

Here, educate yourself.

http://crcs0.tripod.com/lgivl.html