[identity profile] airiefairie.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Could a piece of fiction cause a hatred so strong that would lead to mass killings? The bloody attack in Paris leaving scores of dead innocents will probably add even more dramatism to the vision of one Michel Houellebecq of France as a possible future Islamic republic...


The attack on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo that became infamous for its critical positions against Islam and the Muhammad cartoons from previous years (and whose latest cover was directly inspired by Houellebecq's writings), could also have a connection to Houellebecq's new book, where he describes a fictitious scenario of the Islamisation of France.

France, the year 2022. The crescent shines over Paris, and the green flag of Islam floats atop the Elysee Palace. France has just elected its first Muslim president, Mohammed ben Abbes. The new head of state decides to abolish the secular republic, and build an Islamic theocratic state, where polygamy is legalised, and men have all the power. Women are required to wear burqas and have no right to work or study, the Sorbonne is turned into an Islamic university, all professors there being obliged to accept Islam.

Just a fictional story or a peek into the future? The author seems to genuinely believe that such a far-fetched scenario is actually possible, even if it does not happen so soon as his book claims.

Some years ago, the world-famous writer got the high French literary award Goncourt, and the critics have never stopped calling him a highly controversial, even scandalous author ever since. His brand new book Submission only comes to confirm that. It bears an explosive message, which sounds as if it is taken directly from the rhetoric of the far-right Front National, which is now being echoed in Germany as well: "the West is threatened with Islamisation".

The French League against Racism and Anti-Semitism has warned that Houellebecq is playing with people's collective fears. They have called his books "the greatest present that Marine Le Pen could have received". What they mean is the political intrigue in the book: in order to stop FN and Le Pen from taking over the country, the mainstream leftist and centre-right parties collude to deny her the presidency in favour of the Muslim candidate, thus taking the responsibility for what happens afterwards. His critics believe that Houellebecq is settling scores with real French politicians and an entire political caste which in his view has failed to unite society.

French president Francois Hollande has distanced himself from Houellebecq. He believes his books are not some sort of literature bravery, but merely a regurgitation of old populist cliches. Because there have always been people who have praised the decadent and retrograde, and have dwelt in a permanent sense of hopeless pessimism. Houellebecq himself denies the accusation that he is aiming to fuel people's prejudices. The bad boy of French literature does not seem to believe that he merely plays the role of a professional provocateur. He is convinced that Marine Le Pen would not draw any benefits from his books, since she has been doing quite well in recent times, anyway.

Houellebecq's book, as well as in previous cases, has caused very polarised reactions. Some of the critics call it daring, funny, even a sarcastic satire of today's French society. Others call it an Islamophobic lampoon, solely designed to advocate the ideas of the far-right. The philosopher Malek Chebel says that Houellebecq uses his talent to fuel the fears of Islam, and exactly because he is a great writer, he should have more responsibility in that respect.

His books will probably affect the way the French people perceive the Islamic community in their country, along with yesterday's dreadful attack of course. There is a sense among the Muslim community that they are being branded and stigmatised, and used as a scapegoat for all of France's troubles. The economic crisis could naturally cause a crisis of values, even a moral crisis. And some demagogues in politics would be sure to enjoy taking benefit of this in order to sow fear and have political gains as a result. Unfortunately, Houellebecq's books tend to ultimately drive the point in the same direction.

Whether Submission is a painful call against Islam, or merely a social and political snapshot of the French society, Houellebecq himself will not tell. The protagonist in his latest book, a man called Francois, also finds it hard to define himself. He acknowledges that Islam has had both an attractive and repulsive effect on him, which can be quite confusing for the reader as well. This relativism affects both the character and the author, who has said that he neither supports nor rejects his protagonist, but would rather allow the reader to decide for themselves. Let us hope that he will not be massacred by some extremist lunatic in response to his writings, because these are points to be made and openly discussed, as opposed to being tackled with machine-guns and/or self-censorship.

Update: The much dreaded exchange of violence may have already begun.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 21:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
The entirety of your involvement here. Again, if we're to use your own logic, you "seem" to be defending deliberate provocation and the advocacy of bigoted racist stereotypes under the pretense of exercising the right of free speech for its own sake. So I ask again, what prompted you to champion outright bigotry - was it this obsessive love for the First Amendment that so many Americans like to constantly trumpet far and wide, or was it something about your background that has predisposed you to defend the act of stereotyping of entire ethnic and religious communities?

The question is relatively simple.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 02:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
I suppose you could interpret it that way if you wanted to, but I'm with Christopher Hitchens on this one... (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/christopher-hitchens-today%E2%80%99s-paris-massacre)

Hitchens: Let's do a brief thought experiment. I tell you the following: On New Year's Eve, a man in his mid-seventies is having his granddaughter over for a sleep-over, his five-year old granddaughter. He is attacked in his own home by an axe-wielding maniac with homicidal intent. Your mammalian reaction, your reaction as a primate, is one of revulsion. I'm trusting you on this. [Laughs.]

MJT: Oh, yes. You are correct.

Hitchens: Then you pick up yesterday's Guardian, one of the most liberal newspapers in the Western world, and there's a long article that says, ah, that picture, that moral picture, that instinct to protect the old and the young doesn't apply in this case. The man asked for it...


There are some things that warrant "hoisting the black flag" but being "offended" is not one of them. The late Stéphane Charbonnier may have been an asshole but being an asshole is not a crime nor should it be.

The choice between asshole cartoonists and people who think that murder is okay so long as it's done to protect the reputation of a seventh century Arabian man is an easy choice.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 06:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
That's the point. People can interpret you a myriad of possible ways even if it's bullshit interpretation - which is exactly what you're doing here.

But thanks for doing all these desperate attempts to side-step the question, I guess.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 07:58 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
I'm not side-stepping shit.

Given the choice between asshole cartoonists and people who think that being offended makes murder okay, I am on the side Asshole cartoonists because "being offensive" doesn't even show up on the fucking scale when you're comparing it to murder.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 08:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
Yes you are. Side-stepping the shit out of this baby.

You're on the side of racist bigotry, I got it as early as the first time you argued that, yep.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 09:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
I'm sure you genuinely believe that quoting comedians and copy-pasting cartoons constitutes making a point, but yeah. Your deflection has been duly noted.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 13:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
It seems to a few of our more advanced Europeans here, that if you are racist (and by racist, do something they disagree with to a minority group), you probably deserve what is coming, but they still think violence is bad.

(frozen) (no subject)

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Date: 9/1/15 17:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
was it this obsessive love for the First Amendment that so many Americans like to constantly trumpet far and wide,

Actually, it ain't just annoying Americans, the United Nations 'trumpets it far and wide' in its Universal Declaration of Human Rights.


http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml/

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 17:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
And the very next article of this very same document says (http://www.article19.org/pages/en/hate-speech-more.html):

Article 20(2) of the ICCPR requires states to prohibit hate speech:

"Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law."

...Article 20(2) does not require states to prohibit all negative statements towards national groups, races or religions but, as soon as a statement “constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence,” it must be banned.

Further,

In the opinion of the Committee, these required prohibitions are fully compatible with the right of freedom of expression as contained in article 19, the exercise of which carries with it special duties and responsibilities.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
Righto. And yet your link (to Article 19, an editorial, pro free speech advocacy website, and not the United Nations), fully supported the publication of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons; and they, like a lot of non-Americans, didn't consider the cartoons a violation of the any of the principles listed above.



ARTICLE 19 joins Index on Censorship, the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund, freeDimensional, PEN America, FreeWord, Reporters Without Borders and English PEN to call on all those who believe in the fundamental right to freedom of expression to join in publishing the cartoons or covers of Charlie Hebdo on January 8 at 1400 GMT.

"We are choosing this image to show that whilst it's understood that satirical commentary may be offensive or inflammatory, it's nevertheless an essential element of free expression" said Thomas Hughes, ARTICLE 19 Executive Director.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
Appeal to authority ("but this group supports my view"), plus appeal to popularity ("many people agree with me").

A website's stance on a particular case in no way addresses the fact of the contents and purpose of Article 20 (and neither the contents of the French laws against hate speech). And neither are the opinions of a particular advocacy group on the cartoons (or yours, to that matter) relevant to how the actual law would treat cases like this. Deflection attempt noted.

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Date: 9/1/15 18:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
> an editorial, pro free speech advocacy website, and not the United Nations

The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx) (ICCPR), of which the United States is a state party (https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=IV-4&chapter=4&lang=en), states that "any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law".

That better?

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Date: 9/1/15 18:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
> The [exercise of free speech] carries with it special duties and responsibilities.

I'm not sure that many of the most vocal advocates of free speech are remotely prepared to recognize this.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
No we just disagree vehemently on what those duties and responsibilities actually are.

Direct threats, Slander, the old "fire in a crowded theater" cliche'? These things are all reasonably considered to be off-limits, or at the very least, dangerous ground.

Anything else is fair game.

(no subject)

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Date: 9/1/15 18:03 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
The even more relevant Hate speech laws in France / Freedom of the press (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_France#Freedom_of_the_press):

Articles 32 and 33 prohibit anyone from publicly defaming or insulting a person or group for belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, or a sexual orientation, or for having a handicap. The penalty for defamation is up to a year of imprisonment and a fine of up to €45,000, or either one of those punishments. The penalty for insult is up to six months of imprisonment and a fine of up to €22,500, or either one of those punishments.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
The French laws on freedom of the press are not relevant to the conduct of an actual French media?

O-o-o-kaay then...

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Date: 9/1/15 18:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
Frankly, this level of blanket denial is stunning. :-O

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:31 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] planet-x-zero.livejournal.com
And you support these laws? If you do, you are complicit in the murder of the cartoonists.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
My opinion, apparently, is also irrelevant (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1942293.html?thread=148687893#t148687893).

I thought we were discussing laws here. How exactly my presumed blood-thirst came into this, is beyond me. But sure, your ad hominem was already predicted (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1942293.html?thread=148687381#t148687381), and didn't come late. Most people are indeed so predictable. Is that the best argument you've got?

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] abomvubuso.livejournal.com
Okay, I can do this all day if necessary.

Personal attacks of this sort will NOT be tolerated. You can do better than this.

Consider yourself warned.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
They were aquitted (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2015/0107/Charlie-Hebdo-The-French-magazine-s-long-history-of-polarization-video), what's your point?

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 18:41 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1942293.html?thread=148689941#t148689941

The last sentence.

Any other clarifications that you may require?

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