[identity profile] airiefairie.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Could a piece of fiction cause a hatred so strong that would lead to mass killings? The bloody attack in Paris leaving scores of dead innocents will probably add even more dramatism to the vision of one Michel Houellebecq of France as a possible future Islamic republic...


The attack on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo that became infamous for its critical positions against Islam and the Muhammad cartoons from previous years (and whose latest cover was directly inspired by Houellebecq's writings), could also have a connection to Houellebecq's new book, where he describes a fictitious scenario of the Islamisation of France.

France, the year 2022. The crescent shines over Paris, and the green flag of Islam floats atop the Elysee Palace. France has just elected its first Muslim president, Mohammed ben Abbes. The new head of state decides to abolish the secular republic, and build an Islamic theocratic state, where polygamy is legalised, and men have all the power. Women are required to wear burqas and have no right to work or study, the Sorbonne is turned into an Islamic university, all professors there being obliged to accept Islam.

Just a fictional story or a peek into the future? The author seems to genuinely believe that such a far-fetched scenario is actually possible, even if it does not happen so soon as his book claims.

Some years ago, the world-famous writer got the high French literary award Goncourt, and the critics have never stopped calling him a highly controversial, even scandalous author ever since. His brand new book Submission only comes to confirm that. It bears an explosive message, which sounds as if it is taken directly from the rhetoric of the far-right Front National, which is now being echoed in Germany as well: "the West is threatened with Islamisation".

The French League against Racism and Anti-Semitism has warned that Houellebecq is playing with people's collective fears. They have called his books "the greatest present that Marine Le Pen could have received". What they mean is the political intrigue in the book: in order to stop FN and Le Pen from taking over the country, the mainstream leftist and centre-right parties collude to deny her the presidency in favour of the Muslim candidate, thus taking the responsibility for what happens afterwards. His critics believe that Houellebecq is settling scores with real French politicians and an entire political caste which in his view has failed to unite society.

French president Francois Hollande has distanced himself from Houellebecq. He believes his books are not some sort of literature bravery, but merely a regurgitation of old populist cliches. Because there have always been people who have praised the decadent and retrograde, and have dwelt in a permanent sense of hopeless pessimism. Houellebecq himself denies the accusation that he is aiming to fuel people's prejudices. The bad boy of French literature does not seem to believe that he merely plays the role of a professional provocateur. He is convinced that Marine Le Pen would not draw any benefits from his books, since she has been doing quite well in recent times, anyway.

Houellebecq's book, as well as in previous cases, has caused very polarised reactions. Some of the critics call it daring, funny, even a sarcastic satire of today's French society. Others call it an Islamophobic lampoon, solely designed to advocate the ideas of the far-right. The philosopher Malek Chebel says that Houellebecq uses his talent to fuel the fears of Islam, and exactly because he is a great writer, he should have more responsibility in that respect.

His books will probably affect the way the French people perceive the Islamic community in their country, along with yesterday's dreadful attack of course. There is a sense among the Muslim community that they are being branded and stigmatised, and used as a scapegoat for all of France's troubles. The economic crisis could naturally cause a crisis of values, even a moral crisis. And some demagogues in politics would be sure to enjoy taking benefit of this in order to sow fear and have political gains as a result. Unfortunately, Houellebecq's books tend to ultimately drive the point in the same direction.

Whether Submission is a painful call against Islam, or merely a social and political snapshot of the French society, Houellebecq himself will not tell. The protagonist in his latest book, a man called Francois, also finds it hard to define himself. He acknowledges that Islam has had both an attractive and repulsive effect on him, which can be quite confusing for the reader as well. This relativism affects both the character and the author, who has said that he neither supports nor rejects his protagonist, but would rather allow the reader to decide for themselves. Let us hope that he will not be massacred by some extremist lunatic in response to his writings, because these are points to be made and openly discussed, as opposed to being tackled with machine-guns and/or self-censorship.

Update: The much dreaded exchange of violence may have already begun.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 15:39 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
Nah, all I'm doing is to attempt to infuse some nuance into a conversation that's been infuriatingly, yet quite predictably black-and-white thus far. Granted, nuance may be a concept that's completely alien to some people comfortably dwelling in their neatly tidied imaginary worlds, but no one is perfect.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 15:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
Hard to have nuance when one position involves murdering someone because they drew a picture that hurt your feelings.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 15:44 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
That's the trouble with extreme black-and-white worldviews, yep - they tend to bring extreme outcomes.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 15:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
Well, Hitler didn't kill anybody personally, but he used words to inspire people to start doing just that. (To Godwin this baby a little bit).

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 15:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
Hitler was also a political leader.

Get back to me when Hitler's artwork drove people to kill.

-_-

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 15:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
Art is essentially symbolism. And symbols had a great power in Nazi ideology (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Nazi_Rally-032aaa.jpg).

You're welcome.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 17:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com
Someone is dumbing down an otherwise complex issue! Should I act surprised?

(no subject)

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(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 17:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
Well, he wrote a book and talked a whole nation into starting a world war. Does that count?

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 19:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
That would've been a valid argument if Hitler had used his artwork to drive an actual political point forward.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 21:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
His books certainly did lead people to kill. Not to mention his statements that "If that pernacious poisoner of the peoples, International Jewry, should unleash the horrors of a new world war on Germany, the consequence shall not be the victory of Bolshevism and thus the defeat of Germany, but the annihilation of the Jews in Europe" on January of 1939. Whatever else can be said for ol' Chaplin Stache, he did not hide that he was a genocidal son of a bitch.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 21:22 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Perhaps not personally, but he certainly gave direct orders to do so in the wake of Hindenburg's Death with the Night of the Long Knives, as far as orders that actually survived goes. Naturally he didn't write the Holocaust orders down, why that might backfire on him. The guy in my icon, though, actually did kill people directly in his pre-1917 days as a poet and bank robber.

The satire in question, if done of Jews, would not be treated anywhere near as sympathetically as that of Arab Muslims. This is because, of course, European stereotypes of Jews showed where that eventually ends up and without a bunch of Jews in Europe but with Israel European hatred of Jews fixates on the 'next best thing.' While of course the Islamists are banking on the Europeans proving as moronic as the USA did, which given the opprobrium over the Danish cartoons and the later revival of fascism in Europe seems to be working pretty well thus far.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 17:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
If a mob of Mormons were to lynch Trey Parker, or a group of radical Catholics were to murder Chris Ofili and Andres Serrano would your view be similarly nuanced?

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 17:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
I usually don't deal with hypotheticals, and I'm not familiar with the names that you just cited, but on a first reading, in principle I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 18:11 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Trey Parker is a writer/cartoonist and one of the creators of South Park. His mockery of Mormonism and Scientology have landed him in hot water a few times. Chris Ofili and Andres Serrano are the artists behind Piss Christ and The Sacred Virgin Mary that kicked off all that "what is art?" nonsense in NYC 10 years back or so.

For giggles I really should have included Richard Dawkins and Neil DeGrasse Tyson on that list as well.

Point being that, if it's wrong to provoke Muslims, provoking Christians is equally wrong (or should be).

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 18:16 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
It's not wrong. At all. You got my point entirely upside down. I'm the last guy you'll ever see defending the precious special-butterfly feelings of religious folks. What I AM saying is every action has its respective reaction, which is hardly a surprise, given prior precedent. What I AM also saying is that there are proper channels of expressing grievances and offenses, and setting scores in a legitimate way without wreaking havoc in society. That is ALL I am saying here. Is it really that hard to refrain from ascribing additional motivations into what's being read in comments here?
Edited Date: 8/1/15 18:16 (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 18:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
Let's do a thought experiment: pretend a group of white male Christians armed with AK-47s barged into an abortion clinic, and while yelling "Jesus is God", and "God is great" killed doctors and nurses working there. Would there be this jump to rationalize, contextualize and find nuance from the same people that are so worried and concerned that we must jump through these hoops before coming to a conclusion on what happened?

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 18:18 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1942293.html?thread=148662549#t148662549

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 18:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
But he had a bodyguard, didn't he know he was going to be killed! Why didn't he stop offending people!!

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 19:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
I'm sure you genuinely believe you're being profoundly funny.

(no subject)

Date: 8/1/15 19:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
Are you kidding me? The ultra-conservative talk machine has been doing just that in the case of "pro-life" terrorists who've killed abortion doctors. "Abortion is murder" - the doctors "had it coming". /Puke/

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 01:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
That's kind of my point. This whole "I support free speech and all, but Charlie should have seen this coming" is exactly the same brand of equivocation in my eyes.

If I were to take the stance that "I am opposed to violence and all, but those doctors had it coming" (I am most emphatically not by the way) I would expect you and others, including Htcpl, to call me out on it.

(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 06:54 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
Thing is, I'm not seeing the "they had it coming" argument being expressed here. There's a difference between "they knew the risks" and "they deserved it", the former being essentially what's being expressed here, and the latter being what you insist on interpreting it as. I can totally see where Htpcl's frustration at your stubborn lack of comprehension is coming from. You insist on crafting arguments for people, rather than listening to what they actually have to say. So yeah, if there's one thing I'd rather call you out on, it's this relentless strawmanning.

(no subject)

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(no subject)

Date: 9/1/15 21:25 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
No more so than when an anti-tax extremist decided to fly a plane into an IRS building, which led to zero crackdowns on people who argued that taxation is theft. Or when Breivik did unleash a white supremacist act of terrorism as a poor man's Strom Thurmond and got rather less the draconian response from people on your side of the aisle than one might expect. In fact, there was precisely nuance and claims that bombing children was justifiable because white supremacy.

(no subject)

Date: 10/1/15 08:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sandwichwarrior.livejournal.com
Do you not remember the whole "militia scare" and government crackdown on "hate-groups" that occurred in the wake of Waco, Ruby Ridge, and OK City or was that just before your time?

It took the Wall Street Bailouts to make the whole "Taxes are Theft" meme acceptable in public conversation again.

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