talkpolitics | You had one f-ing job.....

yes-justice.livejournal.com posting in

Uh, red team, wtf? You've allowed these tea party freaks drive to the car into a ditch. That's the plan?

“We’re very excited,” said Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.). “It’s exactly what we wanted, and we got it.”

TIM MURPHY: Well, the short answer is about 20 percent of the federal government, 800,000 federal workers, will show up to work today and be sent home, and that includes 400,000 civilian workers from the Department of the Defense. That’s the department that probably gets the most cuts from this. The longer answer is, you know, pretty much various things that you use in your everyday life will no longer be open to you. People applying for mortgages will have trouble getting that from the federal government. People trying to fill out their taxes will no longer be able to call the IRS to ask basic questions. The Coast Guard is cutting back some of its navigation assistance. Auto—new automobile inspections will be curtailed. The EPA is closing 94 percent of its responsibilities for the foreseeable future. You know, there’s kind of this perception that the shutdown mostly just affects Washington, D.C., and it really does affect Washington, D.C., but it goes much broader than that.

Yay, shut down the EPA, bring back acid rain!!!. NRC has slashed planned nuke plant inspections! NOAA is slashing. EPA is really fucked. NASA Voyager, fucked. Mars Rover is fucked Kids being kicked out of cancer treatments:

"At the National Institutes of Health, nearly three-quarters of the staff was furloughed. One result: director Francis Collins said about 200 patients who otherwise would be admitted to the NIH Clinical Center into clinical trials each week will be turned away. This includes about 30 children, most of them cancer patients, he said."

Awwww hell yeah! Who needs to regulate pesticides, amirite? No more monitoring beef for ecoli, meat eaters. The CDC wont be able to monitor outbreaks or even create a proper flu vaccine - you could have millions of deaths on your hands. Way to stick it to those sciences, red team! Yee haw for hee haw! Gun sale permits are also going to be hampered, opps!!!! Families of American soldiers slain in Afghanistan will be denied death benefits. You shut down the panda cam too dammit:

the deal with the shutdown is it essentially gets worse the longer it goes on. And in 1995 and 1996 it went on for 28 days and ended up costing the U.S., I think, about $2 billion in economic losses, just because people don’t have money and they’re not spending it. So you have the 800,000 workers who will be furloughed, and they’ll be furloughed without pay. And when the shutdown eventually ends, they’ll get that pay. But in the meantime, you know, they’re trying to make ends meet. The government did pass an emergency measure to continue paying members of the armed services last night, so they’ll still work and they’ll still get their pay. But families whose, you know, loved ones die in Afghanistan will not get death benefits in that period. You know, civilian contractors will not, by and large, be showing up to work. The EPA will shut down almost all of its services. The National Zoo will close. Even the panda cam that lets you watch, you know, the pandas on a live stream 24 hours a day will shut down. NASA, I think, is furloughing about 97 percent of its staff. You know, people who depend on the federal government for funding for WIC food assistance will not get that. It’s up to their state whether they’ll get that going forward. Some states have obligations to do that; some states could probably care less. Heating assistance as the weather gets colder is something that is now up in the air. You know, there’s just kind of this wide range of government programs. Head Start, which is a program that has already been kind of really hammered by the sequestration cuts over the last seven months, is going to get further cuts over the next couple of weeks if the shutdown persists, as grants are now put on hold. So, you know, whether you have kids, whether you’re a college student relying on federal student loans or Pell Grants, whether you’re a senior citizen, whether you’re living in a cold region without heat, this shutdown will affect you.

All these self inflicted wounds because they hate a bill that was passed by congress, signed by a president who basically was elected on the issue, and ruled constitutional by the Supreme court. The bastard child of the Heritage foundation, ~~Romney~~Obamacare aka the Affordable Care Act. Gawd forbid birth control be covered.

This woman is far more eloquent than I could be on the issue, so here:

I have a pre-existing condition and I stand to lower my premium, my deductible, and my prescription costs. I promise to return the money I save to the economy quite promptly, I'm good at that part. Just lower your gun and stop hurting people. Pretty please?

To quote Lincoln: "What is our present condition? We have just carried an election on principles fairly stated to the people. Now we are told in advance, the government shall be broken up, unless we surrender to those we have beaten, before we take the offices. In this they are either attempting to play upon us, or they are in dead earnest. Either way, if we surrender, it is the end of us, and of the government. They will repeat the experiment upon us ad libitum."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

cheezyfish.livejournal.com

LOL paft. First off, I'm not part of your idea of "you guys," I'm not a Republican. I'm not Conservative. I'm not a Libertarian. I'm much more liberal than I am conservative. Don't let my refusal to jump in on this LJ group's circle jerks and the occasional pile-on fool you. If I was in a dominantly conservative group, I would be accused of being a left-wing nut.

Secondly, to answer your question, which I will do even though you refused to answer mine: Is it surprising to you that House Republicans, many of which were elected on their promise to attempt to repeal Obamacare, would try to repeal a law that was passed with virtually no Republican support (unlike social security and medicare)? Such a large social program that its possibility for removal, even if found to be a disaster, would be politically intractable. Is it surprising to you that members of the House would attempt to use any leverage they had to stop the law, or even delay it for a year like the Democrats decided to do with the employer mandate? It really isn't to me. Particularly since I think it will help those House Republican's get reelected, and I think they think it too.

Having said that, it really isn't surprising to me as to the extent Democrats will go to maximize the pain brought by this shutdown. Because, as you so finely demonstrated here, people won't hold them accountable for that.

So again Paft, since I was kind enough to answer your question, why don't you answer mine. Why isn't Obama pushing for a separate bill to limit the pain of the shutdown?

From:

paft.livejournal.com

You mean like a clean budget bill that would open federal offices but not defund the ACA?

Boehner won't allow a vote on it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/the-two-basic-facts-that-should-be-in-every-shutdown-story/280179/

From:

cheezyfish.livejournal.com

So your answer is essentially, 'Boehner doesn't want to pass a clean budget Bill?' How is that an answer? You are just reaffirming what I already said, which we are already apparently in agreement with.

Good lord paft. I'll have to ask again. Since Boehner won't allow a vote on it, and the government is shutdown, why hasn't Obama tried to pass measures that would limit the pain instead of, you know, its all the budget or none of it approach?

From:

paft.livejournal.com

You expect Obama to defund his crowning achievement, the ACA? In spite of the fact that the law was passed, the Supreme Court supported it, and people are going to benefit immensely from it?

Frankly, I don't know what my husband and I are going to do if Obamacare is defunded. Without it, we are likely to be priced out of any meaningful health insurance.

Edited Date: 2/10/13 20:09 (UTC)

From:

cheezyfish.livejournal.com

Holy fucking shit. Are you just not understanding the question? Like, W T F. The question has nothing to do with what I expect Obama to accept in respect to funding the ACA. It has nothing to do with the law passing, or the Supreme Court ruling it constitutional (support it?), or the alleged benefits of the law. It doesn't have anything to do with how you or your husband will find Health insurance without it.

The question is, why hasn't Obama tried to push limited spending bills to limit the pain of the shutdown, much like he did with paying the military? Since you can't seem to come anywhere near answering the question, I'll answer it for you...

It is so people can still make comments like this: "The parks are important, but I think most people are even more concerned about all those kids turned away from Cancer treatment, and all those hungry families who find their food assistance cut off."

From:

yes-justice.livejournal.com

Holy fucking shit are you just not understanding that your framing is transparent?

The Republicans wanted this shutdown and they got it. They probably wanted it more than repealing the ACA. Note that they've been threatening such long before the ACA. If Obama folds, then he is basically saying anytime congress disagrees with something, they should shutdown the government. Is that a functional status quo? I think not.

Red team would do better to pass a budget, let Obamacare piss people off all on its own and then criticize. This temper tantrum stuff is harmful, counter productive, and unbecoming.

Edited Date: 3/10/13 00:46 (UTC)

From:

From:

rimpala.livejournal.com - Date: 4/10/13 16:54 (UTC) - Expand

From:

gunslnger.livejournal.com

It's not just paft. It seems like all the liberals in the media can't understand this concept either.

From:

cheezyfish.livejournal.com

There seems to be an unfortunate truth to that. I mean, for God's sake, the leader in the Senate came out and said "why should I care about a child with cancer." That would have ended a Republican's career.

From:

paft.livejournal.com

Spare us the emoting.

Your entire approach to debate consists of wildly extrapolating things liberals and Democrats say while figuring out why the blatant statements and actions of Republicans and conservatives are pefectly reasonable. To this you add your usual histrionics in an attempt to distract attention away from the utter emptiness of your arguments.

The Republicans talk for weeks about shutting the government down if they don't get their way on Obamacare. They do it, and many of them are positively cheering about it, and yet you blandly pretend that it's all the fault of the Democrats for not caving in to the Republicans. And you further blame the Democrats for being unwilling to cave in to a tactic that effectively derails our system of government, offering a party that has shown itself to be both irresponsible and inhumane a method of getting its way when it comes to cuts in programs they have hated from day one.

I realize that you and Sandwichwarrior want to pretend the shutdown is an elaborate Democratic plot to make Republicans look bad, but no rational person believes this.

From:

yes-justice.livejournal.com

Why isn't Obama pushing for a separate bill to limit the pain of the shutdown?

Because he expects people to do their job and follow rule of law.

From:

notmrgarrison.livejournal.com

No laws are being broken.

From:

yes-justice.livejournal.com

A gold star for avoiding criminality. They have control of the house, the GOP did little constructive with it. They'd rather sabotage the government.

From:

gunslnger.livejournal.com

It's not sabotage to follow congressional procedures. Reid is the one sabotaging things by refusing to negotiate or debate anything.

From:

yes-justice.livejournal.com

Shutting down the government over the ACA is obstructionism. Which is all you have because red team can't positively govern anymore.

From:

gunslnger.livejournal.com

Yes, it is, and Reid is the one who shut down the government.

And the big part of the problem is this view that there's two teams.

From:

devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com

You remind me of the Republican Congressman who got on TV last week, and claimed that a bill they passed was "truly bipartisan". They got exactly one Democrat to vote with them. One.

From:

cheezyfish.livejournal.com

Are you saying I have one liberal viewpoint?

From:

ironhawke.livejournal.com

I'm just gonna jump in here for a moment. Yes, Republicans were voted into office on the premise that they would eliminate Obamacare. They were voted in by people who agreed with their stance and hoped that they could make efforts towards that end.

HOWEVER.

We have a President, voted in by the people, who has said unequivocally that any substantial changes to Obamacare are nonstarters, we also have a Senate, controlled by Democrats who also were voted into by the people, who have said essentially the same thing.

The problem here is that the Tea Party (a minority of the minority in the Senate, and a minority of the majority in the House) has decided that in spite of these stands, continue to pass bills that ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT pass. They know this fact and yet pass them anyway. They don't pass bills that genuinely attempt to work with Democrats, they only pass bills that are Tea Party boilerplate, throw the shit pile onto the Senate's steps, then scream their heads off when the Senate does what anyone else would do....dump the shit in the trash.

All of this aside though, Obama did make a very telling statement the other day. (Paraphrasing) "Allowing the Tea Party to hold the country hostage for their demands, and negotiating with them only gives them an incentive to continue with these catastrophic fights."

This I think is why we're here. Obama knows that if he budges on this, lets say for instance he allows a one year extension of the ACA, that a year from know the SAME people who are driving the country to its knees will simply do it again, and again, and again. They simply do not care about functioning government and only dedicate themselves to the altar of the extreme right.

Personally I'm aghast with the whole thing. But I believe the Obama's got it right this time. The Republicans are gonna take the fall for this, and during next year's midterms they're gonna get their asses kicked for pulling this stunt. Personally I would prefer a divided government (meaning one of the Houses of Congress is controlled by the Dems, and one by the Reps) because it allows for a more sane dialogue, once the Republicans cleans house and gets rid of these psychopaths we can finally start getting the country back on track.

From:

cheezyfish.livejournal.com

Obama knows that if he budges on this, lets say for instance he allows a one year extension of the ACA, that a year from know the SAME people who are driving the country to its knees will simply do it again, and again, and again. They simply do not care about functioning government and only dedicate themselves to the altar of the extreme right.

I'm well aware of this. I would argue, contrary to the unfounded assumptions of my opinions elsewhere, that Obama shouldn't budge on the ACA, and I think Republican's, for the most part, know that he won't. Having said that, I think the House leadership is hoping to get something out of it, not related to the ACA, but to the debt limit coming up. This thing won't end until that fight comes up in a couple weeks, and Republicans will take concessions on that in exchange for a clean CR or at least, that is what they hope.

Personally I'm aghast with the whole thing. But I believe the Obama's got it right this time. The Republicans are gonna take the fall for this, and during next year's midterms they're gonna get their asses kicked for pulling this stunt.

I'm fully disgusted with the whole thing myself, however Obama lost me when he decided to do an all or nothing CR. I don't see funding parts of government as bending. I see blocking it as inflicting damage, just like Republicans are, to create political pressure to get the Republicans to fold. Now, I guess I should say that this isn't excusing Republicans for there shitheadedness or somehow saying they share equal blame, but I think Obama and Dems lost the moral high ground that they had earlier before they decided that route. Now I just see a bunch of grown adults throwing insults at each other. I'm not very impressed or happy with much anyone running our government.

I also think Obama would have been able to achieve his goal, a clean CR unattached to changes in the ACA, while simultaneously trying to get Republicans to limit the pain the shutdown inflicts. Instead we have Republicans doing that, and Democrats blocking it and for obvious reasons. Fighting fire with fire I suppose, I just don't like that it is the American people getting burnt.

Republicans cleans house and gets rid of these psychopaths

If anything, this might strengthen reelection hopes for those "psychopaths" and mostly hurt the moderate Republicans in the House, or it may not have much of an affect at all, depending on the outcome of the shutdown which I think, ultimately, will be concessions in the debt limit debate.

From:

yes-justice.livejournal.com

I'm fully disgusted with the whole thing myself, however Obama lost me when he decided to do an all or nothing CR. I don't see funding parts of government as bending. I see blocking it as inflicting damage, just like Republicans are, to create political pressure to get the Republicans to fold. Now, I guess I should say that this isn't excusing Republicans for there shitheadedness or somehow saying they share equal blame, but I think Obama and Dems lost the moral high ground that they had earlier before they decided that route. Now I just see a bunch of grown adults throwing insults at each other. I'm not very impressed or happy with much anyone running our government.

So, you would have preferred he repeal the ACA to fund the parts of the government the tea party wants?

From:

cheezyfish.livejournal.com

I would argue, contrary to the unfounded assumptions of my opinions elsewhere, that Obama shouldn't budge on the ACA,

I mean... it was the first thing I typed?

Edited Date: 3/10/13 20:26 (UTC)