Compassion anyone?
25/6/13 15:16![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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talkpoliticsI cannot understand this whole SNAP debacle that is being played out and talked about. I do not understand how ANYONE can be against feeding the hungry. I am willing to concede that there will be waste and fraud. I cannot imagine what system(s) would not have *some* waste and fraud. That said, waste and fraud are bad, but, let's not go throwing the baby out with the bath water, eh?
Food is NOT an option for people. Neither is water. These two things are HUMAN RIGHTS as far as I am concerned. Nobody, anywhere, should be deprived of access to food and water. And you know what, these things, in their most basic form (ie. basic food staples, not fancy food feasts), should be free. That's right, free. For *every single person*.
I understand that to some cold-hearted demons out there, people only deserve food and water if they *work* for it. Well fuck that. Work is not the pre-requisite, IMO, for food or water. Those should be denied to NOBODY.
I have a question to ask folks here, and I'm not sure I will be able to stomach the responses, but here goes:
Under what circumstances should a hungry person be denied food/water?
Food is NOT an option for people. Neither is water. These two things are HUMAN RIGHTS as far as I am concerned. Nobody, anywhere, should be deprived of access to food and water. And you know what, these things, in their most basic form (ie. basic food staples, not fancy food feasts), should be free. That's right, free. For *every single person*.
I understand that to some cold-hearted demons out there, people only deserve food and water if they *work* for it. Well fuck that. Work is not the pre-requisite, IMO, for food or water. Those should be denied to NOBODY.
I have a question to ask folks here, and I'm not sure I will be able to stomach the responses, but here goes:
Under what circumstances should a hungry person be denied food/water?
(no subject)
Date: 25/6/13 20:36 (UTC)Oh MERCY sakes! Those nice-nice people in business suits would NEVER do anything so icky! That's just SILLY!
Have you followed the issue of privatizing water? In South Africa, after the water system was privatized, potable water became inaccessible to many poor South Africans. The result? They relied on what they could find in ditches. Which led to one of the worst Cholera epidemics in living memory.
(no subject)
Date: 25/6/13 20:45 (UTC)Some things should never be privatized. Ever.
(no subject)
Date: 25/6/13 20:47 (UTC)Paft, I grow tired of telling you to grow up.
Those nice-nice public employees would NEVER do anything so icky! Oh wait Paft, they do all the time...
Have you followed the issue of privatizing water? In South Africa, after the water system was privatized, potable water became inaccessible to many poor South Africans.
Is electricity inaccessible to poor Americans Paft?
(no subject)
Date: 25/6/13 20:59 (UTC)If there weren't strict rules in place governing how and when those public employees turned off water and utilities, of course they would. Just like everyone else.]
ch: Is electricity inaccessible to poor Americans Paft?
In some cases, yes, it is. And has been.
I guess you never followed the Enron scandal, which involved a private company causing rolling blackouts in California, all in the name of profits.
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 01:38 (UTC)Those rules: is a government more likely to make those rules making it harder for themselves to collect money owed, or are they more likely going to make those rules making it harder for someone else to collect that money?
In some cases, yes, it is. And has been.
As has water.
I guess you never followed the Enron scandal, which involved a private company causing rolling blackouts in California, all in the name of profits.
Most of the US power production is private. Enron took advantage of a poor policy experiment, and didn't effect the price to the consumer. It just caused the middle men that sold that power to go bankrupt.
You reference Africa a lot. Wanna talk about blackouts caused by publicly run electricity generation?
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 02:03 (UTC)The government's function is not to make a profit, but to provide a service to citizens, so your question doesn't make much sense.
cf: Most of the US power production is private. Enron took advantage of a poor policy experiment, and didn't effect the price to the consumer. It just caused the middle men that sold that power to go bankrupt.
As one of those consumers, I assure you, those rolling blackouts affected me and many, many others.
cf: You reference Africa a lot.
I reference that pesky example in Africa of what happens when water is privatized.
cf: Wanna talk about blackouts caused by publicly run electricity generation?
What examples do you have in mind?
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 02:31 (UTC)Public utilities aren't done for free. They still shut your water off if you don't pay the bill. This isn't hard to understand Paft.
As one of those consumers, I assure you, those rolling blackouts affected me and many, many others.
Like I said, blame your state government for its spot price experiment. Electricity generation is mostly a private enterprise, and most don't experience black-outs.
I reference that pesky example in Africa of what happens when water is privatized.
Third world problems don't apply to the US. Many in South Africa don't have access to running water, and there is a culture of not wanting to pay for your water (why should they, they have rivers and stuff were they can get free). Money for infrastructure doesn't come from no where. If you want to give everyone running water, sewer systems, people need to pay. Many of those people who got sick had a river as their primary source of drinking water. They didn't get their water turned off, they never had it. And sanitation services are severely lacking, which could arguably have been a much greater factor than lack of well water.
What examples do you have in mind?
Take your pick. A Nigerian who works in my lab will talk your ear off all day about it. Your rolling blackouts was a way of life for him growing up.
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 02:54 (UTC)Never said they were free. But, as I pointed out, as a non-commercial enterprise, the government does not exist to turn a profit. Therefore, there are usually rules in place about how and when certain utilities can be turned off.
ch: Like I said, blame your state government for its spot price experiment.
But not the private company that deliberately caused the blackouts?
ch: Take your pick. A Nigerian who works in my lab will talk your ear off all day about it.
So I've cited an example of a private company, and privatization, resulting in rolling blackouts in the US, including a major US city. You say the same thing happens with public companies and cite stories told by someone from Nigeria.
You don't have an example of that happening in the US?
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 03:56 (UTC)Are you under the impression that the state can't regulate private companies?
But not the private company that deliberately caused the blackouts?
No, blame them too. They were breaking the law at the time.
You say the same thing happens with public companies and cite stories told by someone from Nigeria.
The point of that was to display the error in your third world comparisons. Nigeria sucks at it because it is complicated.
You don't have an example of that happening in the US?
Arguably, Enron was an example of public control resulting in blackouts in the US. Power production is extremely complicated. Sure, production and delivery is primarily private, but it isn't a simple matter of building a power plant, turning it on, putting up power lines and selling your product. Demand has to equal supply, and when the government changes laws that govern how those things are done, things get messed up. And sometimes, its because it allows companies to manipulate the market.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 06:27 (UTC)You'd be surprised.
The ignorance radiating from this statement is mind boggling. A megapolis of many millions should rely on how many rivers, now? Rivers that have been polluted by the private mining industry, by the way.
Access to clean fresh water is of paramount importance for life. Access to electricity, not so much. Sure, water should be paid for when using the water-delivery infrastructure. But monopolist practices pushing prices to unbearable levels should be countered with regulation.
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 13:38 (UTC)Clean water and the energy grid cannot be described as third-world in the US.
The ignorance radiating from this statement is mind boggling.
Well, I would tend to agree, but lighten up! It isn't like these South Africans who don't even have access to a flushing toilet can just walk down to their local University and take some courses on microbiology and civil engineering so they can learn the dangers of drinking water from a river.
Rivers that have been polluted by the private mining industry, by the way.
Its a shame that so many are forced to drink from them simply because lack of funds for infrastructure.
(no subject)
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From:(frozen) (no subject)
Date: 27/6/13 21:16 (UTC)Affect. And it sure affected the delivery of services, which gave folks on dialysis machines quite a scare.
(frozen) (no subject)
Date: 28/6/13 17:53 (UTC)Ummm fuck you.
And it sure affected the delivery of services, which gave folks on dialysis machines quite a scare.
Power goes out all the time.
(frozen) (no subject)
Date: 29/6/13 03:37 (UTC)Wow. What is your problem?
Never mind. Just leave me alone and I'll return the favor.
(frozen) (no subject)
Date: 29/6/13 16:08 (UTC)(frozen) (no subject)
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From:(frozen) (no subject)
Date: 29/6/13 17:26 (UTC)That's not cool. I'm not a mod, but you shouldn't be cursing people. Just step away, and move on.
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Date: 26/6/13 06:23 (UTC)Now tell me, can you live without water?
Last question. Where does this proneness to fallacious equivocations emerge from?
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 13:26 (UTC)Not really.
And so is the Internet
That is
But can you live without electricity?
Ya, not a high standard of living, but you can survive without it. You can also die from suddenly not having it.
Now tell me, can you live without water?
Depends on what you mean by water. If you mean treated, drinkable water delivered to your home, then ya, you can live without it. Millions in your country do just that. It isn't why I'm comparing the two, however.
Last question. Where does this proneness to fallacious equivocations emerge from?
I'm taking two utilities, one that is primarily done publicly, the other that is primarily done privately. The question is, does profit limit access. Why shouldn't I compare the two?
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 17:53 (UTC)So why is it that you're comparing the US to my country?
Why should you compare two utilities that are done in two fundamentally different ways (as you've yourself acknowledged), and which vastly differ in terms of their significance for sustaining human life? Where's the common ground for that comparison?
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 18:09 (UTC)I'm not... Paft was. I was pointing out that you can't compare the two countries.
Why should you compare two utilities that are done in two fundamentally different ways (as you've yourself acknowledged), and which vastly differ in terms of their significance for sustaining human life?
The question was, does profit limit access to utilities. Lack of private water works makes a direct comparison difficult does it not? Also, I would argue that clean water coming out of my facet is not necessary for my survival.
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 18:12 (UTC)What? Do you mean you can get water elsehwere, or are you some sort of superhuman that doesn't need water to live?
(no subject)
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Date: 25/6/13 20:48 (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 08:13 (UTC)http://exopermaculture.com/2013/06/20/good-news-doctors-invent-a-cheaper-better-alternative-to-health-insurance-system/ for one example.
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 13:47 (UTC)Hospitals make shit up for prices.
Medicare gives hospitals 133% of the cost of whatever medical procedure was done. That's why medicare is more effective at keeping costs low. It's also why some hospitals don't want medicare patients. They aren't interested in recovering their losses plus 33%. They want thousands of percent profit. Fuck that.
That said, I may agree with you, insurance is a scam. Use what you pay for.
But in the sense that we all will get sick eventually and we may not want to be hit with a big fat bill when we are deathly ill, we should pay for it with a tax. Like Social Security. Everybody pays in. Everybody has access when they need it.
(no subject)
Date: 26/6/13 21:28 (UTC)Medicare keeps costs lower than using insurance as a payment plan because it uses arbitrary set prices instead of just arbitrary prices. However, it doesn't keep costs lower than competition and having insurance actually be just insurance would.
Read the link. You still don't need government to provide anything nor tax for it.