Talk politics.

If there weren't strict rules in place governing how and when those public employees turned off water and utilities, of course they would. Just like everyone else.

Those rules: is a government more likely to make those rules making it harder for themselves to collect money owed, or are they more likely going to make those rules making it harder for someone else to collect that money?

In some cases, yes, it is. And has been.

As has water.

I guess you never followed the Enron scandal, which involved a private company causing rolling blackouts in California, all in the name of profits.

Most of the US power production is private. Enron took advantage of a poor policy experiment, and didn't effect the price to the consumer. It just caused the middle men that sold that power to go bankrupt.

You reference Africa a lot. Wanna talk about blackouts caused by publicly run electricity generation?

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paft.livejournal.com

cf: is a government more likely to make those rules making it harder for themselves to collect money owed, or are they more likely going to make those rules making it harder for someone else to collect that money?

The government's function is not to make a profit, but to provide a service to citizens, so your question doesn't make much sense.

cf: Most of the US power production is private. Enron took advantage of a poor policy experiment, and didn't effect the price to the consumer. It just caused the middle men that sold that power to go bankrupt.

As one of those consumers, I assure you, those rolling blackouts affected me and many, many others.

cf: You reference Africa a lot.

I reference that pesky example in Africa of what happens when water is privatized.

cf: Wanna talk about blackouts caused by publicly run electricity generation?

What examples do you have in mind?

Edited Date: 26/6/13 02:03 (UTC)

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The government's function is not to make a profit, but to provide a service to citizens, so your question doesn't make much sense.

Public utilities aren't done for free. They still shut your water off if you don't pay the bill. This isn't hard to understand Paft.

As one of those consumers, I assure you, those rolling blackouts affected me and many, many others.

Like I said, blame your state government for its spot price experiment. Electricity generation is mostly a private enterprise, and most don't experience black-outs.

I reference that pesky example in Africa of what happens when water is privatized.
Third world problems don't apply to the US. Many in South Africa don't have access to running water, and there is a culture of not wanting to pay for your water (why should they, they have rivers and stuff were they can get free). Money for infrastructure doesn't come from no where. If you want to give everyone running water, sewer systems, people need to pay. Many of those people who got sick had a river as their primary source of drinking water. They didn't get their water turned off, they never had it. And sanitation services are severely lacking, which could arguably have been a much greater factor than lack of well water.

What examples do you have in mind?
Take your pick. A Nigerian who works in my lab will talk your ear off all day about it. Your rolling blackouts was a way of life for him growing up.

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paft.livejournal.com

ch: Public utilities aren't done for free. They still shut your water off if you don't pay the bill.

Never said they were free. But, as I pointed out, as a non-commercial enterprise, the government does not exist to turn a profit. Therefore, there are usually rules in place about how and when certain utilities can be turned off.

ch: Like I said, blame your state government for its spot price experiment.

But not the private company that deliberately caused the blackouts?

ch: Take your pick. A Nigerian who works in my lab will talk your ear off all day about it.

So I've cited an example of a private company, and privatization, resulting in rolling blackouts in the US, including a major US city. You say the same thing happens with public companies and cite stories told by someone from Nigeria.

You don't have an example of that happening in the US?

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Never said they were free. But, as I pointed out, as a non-commercial enterprise, the government does not exist to turn a profit. Therefore, there are usually rules in place about how and when certain utilities can be turned off.

Are you under the impression that the state can't regulate private companies?

But not the private company that deliberately caused the blackouts?

No, blame them too. They were breaking the law at the time.

You say the same thing happens with public companies and cite stories told by someone from Nigeria.
The point of that was to display the error in your third world comparisons. Nigeria sucks at it because it is complicated.

You don't have an example of that happening in the US?
Arguably, Enron was an example of public control resulting in blackouts in the US. Power production is extremely complicated. Sure, production and delivery is primarily private, but it isn't a simple matter of building a power plant, turning it on, putting up power lines and selling your product. Demand has to equal supply, and when the government changes laws that govern how those things are done, things get messed up. And sometimes, its because it allows companies to manipulate the market.

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paft.livejournal.com

ch: Are you under the impression that the state can't regulate private companies?

...to howls of "Socialism!" and much chest beating and wailing from the right.

Yes, I do blame the stupid politicians who though turning utility customers over to the tender mercies of a for-profit corporation was a good idea.

ch: The point of that was to display the error in your third world comparisons. Nigeria sucks at it because it is complicated.

Well, first of all, the problem is that this wasn't a matter of an inexperienced Third World country using some penny-ante local private water company on its own initiative. South Africa was sold a very aggressive bill of goods by the World Trade Organization, and the company involved was a very sophisticated multi-national based in the first world -- not the third.

Second, I cited the South African case in response to what seemed your rather weird premise that mercy sakes, people just wouldn't DO icky things like that for profit! The answer is, of course they would, given the chance. They'd do it in Africa, in Europe, in the Americas if they could get away with it.

And if you imagine nobody would wreck people's water system for profit -- right here in the USA -- you plainly haven't been following the issues surrounding Fracking.

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Third world problems don't apply to the US

You'd be surprised.

why should they, they have rivers and stuff were they can get free

The ignorance radiating from this statement is mind boggling. A megapolis of many millions should rely on how many rivers, now? Rivers that have been polluted by the private mining industry, by the way.

Access to clean fresh water is of paramount importance for life. Access to electricity, not so much. Sure, water should be paid for when using the water-delivery infrastructure. But monopolist practices pushing prices to unbearable levels should be countered with regulation.

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You'd be surprised.

Clean water and the energy grid cannot be described as third-world in the US.

The ignorance radiating from this statement is mind boggling.

Well, I would tend to agree, but lighten up! It isn't like these South Africans who don't even have access to a flushing toilet can just walk down to their local University and take some courses on microbiology and civil engineering so they can learn the dangers of drinking water from a river.

Rivers that have been polluted by the private mining industry, by the way.
Its a shame that so many are forced to drink from them simply because lack of funds for infrastructure.

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Water and electricity issues in the US? Nah, I was rather referring to some aspects of the quality of life of vast segments of the US society which have been steadily deteriorating in recent times, particularly in comparison to other industrialized countries and emerging economies. Not exactly to a Third-World levels yet, but with the social gap widening, the direction is now very clear.

As for lack of access to information about the dangers of poor sanitation, you're totally right. Which makes the argument that "people have wells and rivers, so there's nothing to worry about", to put it mildly, rather naive.

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Nah, I was rather referring to some aspects of the quality of life of vast segments of the US society

Fair enough.

As for lack of access to information about the dangers of poor sanitation, you're totally right. Which makes the argument that "people have wells and rivers, so there's nothing to worry about", to put it mildly, rather naive.

I'm not sure who is making that argument. I was discussing why there is a culture of not wanting to pay for water. The reasoning being, as you already pointed out, ignorance.

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didn't effect the price to the consumer. It just caused the middle men that sold that power to go bankrupt.

Affect. And it sure affected the delivery of services, which gave folks on dialysis machines quite a scare.

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Affect

Ummm fuck you.

And it sure affected the delivery of services, which gave folks on dialysis machines quite a scare.

Power goes out all the time.

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Ummm fuck you.

Wow. What is your problem?

Never mind. Just leave me alone and I'll return the favor.

Edited Date: 29/6/13 03:44 (UTC)

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You say something rude, don't be surprised when someone says something rude back.

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I corrected what I thought was a misuse of effect/affect.

You escalated. Way overboard.

I'm basically doing what I can to remain civil, but I want to avoid this sort of drama and this isn't the first time we've danced like this, so I think we should just avoid each other.

Edited Date: 29/6/13 18:06 (UTC)

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htpcl.livejournal.com

So "this word is not written that way" is as rude as "fuck you"? What about "you missed a capitalization letter up there". What would the proper response be, "eat shit and die"?

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404.livejournal.com

Ummm fuck you.

That's not cool. I'm not a mod, but you shouldn't be cursing people. Just step away, and move on.

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I have had numerous problems with yes_justice, including him once saying he would like to rape me, and hence I have zero patience with him. Having said that, you over estimate how angry I am and if a mod would like to come along and freeze the thread they can knock themselves out, because I'm just about never interested in having a convo with him.

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including him once saying he would like to rape me

This deserves some context.

You were victim blaming, saying women invite rape via dress, behavior, etc.
To illustrate the cruelty of your assertions, I made you the mock target by suggesting your writing turned me on and was inviting me to rape you. I wasn't serious, but hoping to illustrate that you were blaming the victim.

And now you've cussed me out and gotten away it. Viva revenge. I hope your dick is hard now.

Edited Date: 29/6/13 18:26 (UTC)

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Bye, take your own advice. I have absolutely no interest in having any sort of discussion with people like you.

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yes-justice.livejournal.com - Date: 29/6/13 18:38 (UTC) - Expand

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telemann.livejournal.com - Date: 29/6/13 18:39 (UTC) - Expand

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mahnmut.livejournal.com - Date: 29/6/13 19:45 (UTC) - Expand

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I'd prefer not to have to freeze the thread. Shall I trust your ability to sort this out on your own in an adult way or not? I don't want to be wielding the hammer for this and that if it could be avoided. Care to help me out?

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htpcl.livejournal.com

Your numerous problems shouldn't matter when it comes to choosing between acting like an e-bully or an actual adult.

These cases tend to pile over, you know.

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nairiporter.livejournal.com

That's good, because the next time you say fuck you to someone, I'm afraid we won't just be having a conversation full with stories about the past.

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luvdovz.livejournal.com

Hey, defending civility! That's a nice progress since earlier (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/1643533.html?thread=131420429#t131420429) this year!

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