[identity profile] ddstory.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics

Here's a thought. Is it just me, or the influence of the presidential TV debates looks overly pumped up? I mean, those debates are presented as if they're somehow expected to turn everything on its head before the election. As if nothing of what had happened over the last months is of any importance any more. Well, when was the last time a TV debate caused a complete 180'? And, while we're at it, when has any VP debate affected the main battle between the presidential candidates?

OK, in all fairness, there are a few very notable exceptions from the rule. Probably the only VP candidate that made such an impact was Lyndon Johnson in 1960. But neither Dan Quayle, nor Geraldine Ferraro, not even George HW Bush (as Reagan's VP) had such a significance for their respective campaigns. And Sarah Palin only confirmed what everybody already knew in 2008: that there was no way Obama would've lost.

Come to think of it, it's too difficult to say for sure what exactly affects the undecided voters during a campaign. Even in a presumably polarized election like this one, where both candidates have said that "we're standing at a very clear choice". I.e. two contrasting ideological concepts. But let's face it, the media debates in their current version are a pale shadow of what they used to be in 1960, and they're fast losing of their significance. Today, when most of the media is about spin and talking points, pretending that two separate press conferences of the two candidates (where the main points are watered down, perfumed and served in a neat, pre-rehearsed package) constitute a "debate" in any way, is a farce. Most discussion elements are stripped down. The candidates are concerned more about appearing presidente-ey, rather than presenting something of substance.

And the same applies to this type of TV duels where each of the candidates recites pre-written stanzas in response to a pre-selected set of questions. Not to mention that very often they're forced to squeeze their positions into tiny 1-2 minute bits where such complex subjects like the economy, health care, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or the Iranian nuclear program are impossible to dig into. They only scratch the surface of the issues, they don't have time to get to essentials (like Clinton did in that speech at the Democratic convention), and they certainly don't dare to stray too much into tangents or paddle into dangerous waters where they could potentially do some stupid mistake and extend their list of gaffes. (And the gotcha-journalists are sure to stalk for those as soon as anyone opens their mouth).

It's become clear that such a debate format gives little opportunity for a nuanced elaboration of positions. It all boils down to an "express" exchange of remarks, and the repetition of well rehearsed soundbites, designed for a single purpose: hitting the subject right on the head, and staying on course, with no chance of deviations, and no potential slip-ups.

That said, we-the-public who for the most part behave like virtual vultures, are just waiting for any of the candidates to "discover" a non-existing country somewhere in the world, or add 7 new states to the list of US states, or forget the name of the department they mean to shut down, or to shock the audience by proclaiming themselves the ultimate expert on the history of the Soviet Union. And all that explains why ever since 1960 when the famous Nixon v Kennedy debate happened, the public's fascination with these presidential TV duels has steadily declined. Even despite all the showbiz-style efforts of the TV anchors to turn it into some kind of reality show.

But still, I have no doubt that millions of Americans (and even people in Europe who'll have to stay awake until the small hours) will be watching the first debate today. Maybe hoping to witness a major meltdown of one (or both) of the candidates, while pretending to be listening "because we care about the issues".

Why is that? Because this election will be very closely contested, that's why. And in such situations, it's natural to expect that the final outcome would be at least partially affected by the debates. There's a sense that even the tiniest remark, or the smallest but very smart rebuttal, could get overhyped and "go viral" to an extent that it'd sway the vote. We've seen what a small Youtube video could do, after all. There's also this: maybe those who still haven't decided how they'd vote (if at all) are still holding some hopes that they'd see what Romney is really about, whether his policies are really as dangerous as some are presenting them to be, and whether he has the necessary economic competence that's expected of a president. In other words: does he look like a presidential material or not.

And lastly, but most importantly, the TV debates on October 3, 16 and 22 could have some importance only if the two candidates are still close in the polls by that time. If one of them (probably Obama) takes a too big lead, the effect could be like an avalanche of withdrawn support from Romney. There was a sense of doom about McCain's candidacy back in 2008, mostly due to Obama's irresistible aura of Hopey-Change. Now that there's no trace from that hype remaining, it's all about Jobs Jobs Jobs, etc.

The super large poll margin was the reason why nobody cared particularly much about the TV debates between Reagan and Mondale in 1984, or the Dole v Clinton debates in 1996. By the time the debates came, the press was already writing obituaries about the doomed candidacies and odes to the winners, long before the poll stations were opened. But if this month Romney puts a dent in Obama's rhetorical armor (which would equal a miracle), then maybe I'd be prepared to stand corrected.

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Date: 3/10/12 15:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com
I'll stay with it until some moron makes a teleprompter comment. Then I'm done.

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Date: 3/10/12 15:57 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
You said "moron," I read "mormon."

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Date: 3/10/12 15:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a-new-machine.livejournal.com
The reason it's presented this way isn't because the election will be closely contested, but because the media makes more money off of constant must-watch "game changers" (every primary, the first big stump speech, the conventions, the debates, etc.) than they would off of a story of ~6% of the electorate coming to a decision based on information about policies and their actual effects. And, of course, those of us in the 94% who are already decided are the ones who are really driving this - just like nobody listens to Rush to have their mind changed, nobody watches debates thinking that Obama could really win them over. It's basically cheerleading, on the part of those who've already decided and are not going to change their votes.

My own local public radio station actually reinforced this rather brilliantly the other day. They had a few campaign-watchers and policy wonks on to talk about the races in New Hampshire, and quickly cut off anyone who started talking about the sideshow bullshit, or even disparaging other candidates. This was solely about the issues, where each candidate stands on them, and how different groups believe their policies will play out. The guy opposed to charter schools and vouchers raised a Florida study supporting their efficacy, and said that certain fears raised by a caller were logically sound, but had no empirical evidence as of yet. The difference between that sort of voter-education effort and what the news channels do for elections could not be clearer.

ETA: By the by, any chance of an open thread for the debates tonight? Though I know I spent this entire comment disparaging it, I do so love the sideshow.
Edited Date: 3/10/12 15:52 (UTC)

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Date: 3/10/12 16:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
You make the open thread! I ain't exposing my Inbox to all that flood! LOL.

Seriously, I mean it. We do need an open thread, and I invite you to post it.

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Date: 3/10/12 16:19 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
Well, when was the last time a TV debate caused a complete 180'

Jimmy Carter and Reagan in 1980. Carter's performance was a disaster. He was neck-and-neck with Regan until the debates, and after that, never recovered.

And 1992, when Bill Clinton turned the tables on Bush I, who suggested Clinton was a draft dodger and unpatriotic (a reliable tool in the GOP arsenal since at least Richard Nixon's campaign in 1968). Clinton's direct reply to Bush was a significant watershed moment in that series of debates. Bush needed a knock-out punch, and wasn't able to do it.

Al Gore's performance was pretty bad in 2000, stiff, wonky, condescending, the weird invasion of Bush's personal space and leering at him.

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Date: 3/10/12 16:27 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com
The Iran hostage situation sunk Carter, along with his "gloomy gus" personality.

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Date: 3/10/12 17:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
I would argue that they never did do a 180. Where they were decisive, it was a reflection of other, in-built aspects of the campaigns. Like for instance Carter's problems with re-election being much deeper than a single debate, namely that Reagan had built a broad coalition where Carter wasn't capable of sophisticated politics when in office as opposed to criticizing the people in office.

Bill Clinton didn't beat Bush I due to the debates, but rather due to the difficulties Bush I experienced in sustaining any enthusiasm from the kinds of people busy ruining the GOP now, whose enthusiasm he needed to get re-elected.

And Gore, of course, technically won the election and if he'd had the brains to call for a statewide recount would have won the electoral college as well.

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Date: 3/10/12 23:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com
I don't know I've read pretty convincing arguments to the contrary.
http://www.tnr.com/blog/electionate/107171/exploding-the-reagan-1980-comeback-myth
Whatcha think?

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Date: 3/10/12 16:31 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] enders-shadow.livejournal.com
the average voter is like the average consumer: bombard them with messages and maybe they'll pick your brand!

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Date: 3/10/12 22:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-rukh.livejournal.com
Its the same marketing model.

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Date: 3/10/12 17:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
It's never just you.

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Date: 3/10/12 17:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oportet.livejournal.com
I'm interested in hearing the bullshit stories where candidates pretend to have met, interacted, and given a shit about a common person.

I met a man the other day, his name was Jimmy Jones. Mr. Jones didn't have any money for gas, there was a rottweiler attacking his leg, and he only had half a head. Mr Jones grabbed my hand and told me, 'I want you to be my president, not that other guy'.

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Date: 3/10/12 17:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luzribeiro.livejournal.com
And also:

"Thanks to our policies from the last four years, good old Miss Longbottom from Looneyville, Minnesota, will be able to drive her ethanol-powered wheelchair to the local LGBT strip club and help organizing the soup kitchen for the veterans from the Pepper Spray Revolution".

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Date: 3/10/12 18:09 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Pres. Johnson told some moving stories about his cook, Zephyr Wright, being denied access to public restrooms during road trips. It beats all those other Jane Doe stories hands down.

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Date: 3/10/12 17:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
Obama's irresistible aura of Hopey-Change

Which reminds me (http://talk-politics.livejournal.com/15078.html)...

Ah, mem'riz.

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Date: 3/10/12 17:59 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Nice font shifting there. If witches of old were accused of shape shifting, would today's witches be accused of font shifting?

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Date: 3/10/12 17:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] comeonyouspurs.livejournal.com
They're both shit. I just wanted to post this, seeing as we are talking about the mainstream press trying to influence public opinion by writing the candidates' obituaries before the polling has even begun:

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Date: 3/10/12 17:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Once again, this is older than you think:

Image

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Date: 3/10/12 21:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] devil-ad-vocate.livejournal.com
The mass media is very good at leading viewers/readers in WHAT they should be thinking about, but ineffective at influencing HOW they should think about it.

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Date: 3/10/12 17:53 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luvdovz.livejournal.com
It'll be curious to observe how Romney would fare there, since he has done such a turn to the right in his attempts to rile up his base. In result, he may've alienated the moderate center, and it won't be easy to get it back at this point. His 47% comment didn't help much either in that respect.

Obama is in a similar trouble, but for a slightly different reason. People's disillusionment with the slow recovery may keep many of the moderates at home on election day, and that would make the hardcore supporters of both candidates disproportionately significant. If any of them can change that during the debates and then keep the interest of the moderates, they could capitalize on it.

So far Obama seems to have the better strategy, because he has relied on firing up the same base that voted for him in 2008. That's something like an ironic surprise for the Democrats because this plan is an almost complete copy of Carl Rove's plan in 2004 for W's reelection. Both W and now Obama have avoided talking in too much detail about their intentions for the next 4 years so they wouldn't drive off potential moderate voters. Instead they relied on attacking the opponent. And any complaint from either side that the other side is being "mean" to them is utter bullshit at this point. Neither of them is a saint in this respect, despite all the hiding behind super-PACs and other such hocus-pocus.

Ultimately, if/when Obama wins, it won't be because he'll have done something outstanding during the campaign. It'll be mostly because of Romney's ineptness. And that doesn't speak good for either of them.

The most interesting effect from all this juggling with the moderate center is that the independent votes have become extremely crucial, and hence very expensive (per vote) to snatch - both in terms of campaign expenses and effort invested.

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Date: 3/10/12 17:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
I am looking forward to an interaction with someone on the street like the famous Joe the Plumber scene during the last election. Something like that stirs up more debate and exposes subliminal fears better than a staged debate.

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Date: 4/10/12 01:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com
Joe is the son of the vice president of Lincoln Savings (as in the Lincoln Savings bailout). He was no random citizen, not by a long shot. The media made him a sensation, even though there were actual random citizens who spoke quite a bit more clearly and interestingly.

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Date: 3/10/12 18:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] root-fu.livejournal.com
Image

Not much CHANGE in the last 4 years unfortunately.

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Date: 3/10/12 23:40 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] op-tech-glitch.livejournal.com
The best drinking game suggestion I've heard thus far is to chug whenever Mitt pretends he's never heard of George Bush.

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