[identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
American news has been dominated lately by nearly back to back mass shootings. The first in Aurora, Colorado where 12 people were killed and dozens wounded by James Holmes, and this week in Wisconsin, where white supremacist Wade Michael Page shot six Sihk worshippers to death at a gurdwara before being shot to death by police.

As he did in the wake of the Colorado shooting, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has attacked both Presidential candidates for failing to outline any plans to address gun violence in the United States if elected. Mr. Bloomberg has long made cracking down on gun violence a cornerstone of his administration in New York City and has, in recent months, tried to take the issue to a national stage.



* In 2009, there were 11,493 homicides by firearms in the United States. While that number is very large on its own, it is within a population of over 300,000,000 nationally and represents 3.7 deaths per 100,000 population. In 2009, there were 18,735 suicides by gun, but these are not violent crimes in the sense of homicide.

In that same year, there were 33,883 deaths related to traffic accidents in the United States, representing 11.05 deaths per 100,000 population.

Given these numbers, the United States may have a large number of deaths by guns, but the great majority of citizens will never be victims of gun violence and probably will never see a gun in any other context than either recreational use or carried in a holster by a police officer.

* On the other hand, it is without any doubt that among wealthy nations, our rate of gun violence is dramatically higher and that the human toll we inflict upon ourselves via gun violence is without precedent in the modern, developed world.

Homicide in the United States occurs at a rate that is 6.9 times higher than other high income nations with a firearm homicide rate that is 19.5 times higher. Among 23 nations studied, 80% of the firearm homicides happen in the United States. 86% of women killed by firearms are U.S. women and 87% of people aged 0-14 killed by firearms are U.S. children.

When the data are parsed more closely, the tragedy of how deaths by gun violence are concentrated in certain communities is evident. Mass casualty shootings capture our attention but they do not represent the majority of our firearm related homicides. The modal victim of a fatal gun shooting is young, male and African American who in 1997 were murdered by gun at a rate of 103.4 per 100,000 population. which would top this list of countries by rate of gun death. According to CDC estimates from 1997, if the general population were killed by gun at the same rate as young, African American men, there would have been 276,843 homicides by gun in 1997.

* On a much more visceral level, while I logically accept that our homicide by gun rate does not mean that any one of us should specifically believe ourselves likely to die by a gun, I cannot dismiss any number as large as 11,493:



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THAT is what 11,493 looks like. Except every one of those little x's is a mother's son, a father's daughter, a father, a mother, a friend, a co-worker. And no matter how you parse the numbers per population, the sheer number and rate of deaths by gun in this country is an absolute outlier among our international peers.


The more difficult questions revolve around what CAN America do about gun violence, what SHOULD we do about gun violence or what do we even WANT to do about gun violence? Despite the rather colorful conspiracy theories of NRA vice president Wayne LaPierre about how President Obama will use a second term to destroy the Second Amendment, individual gun rights have never been as secure in my lifetime as they are today. In the 1970s and 1980s, there was a fairly vigorous gun control lobby, but it has had no significant victories since the passing of the Brady Bill and the now-expired "assault weapons" ban, and anti-gun advocates find themselves fighting largely defensive actions today on whether or not various states should pass bills allowing concealed weapons in churches, schools and bars. Simply put, there is no organized movement capable of passing legislation that seriously impedes the sale of firearms in America.

But a question of what will positively change the homicide rate by firearms in this country seems to go well beyond matters of legislation. I am not going to pretend to be wise enough to think of what those solutions are, and they will probably vary community by community as what drives gang on gang violence in Newark, N.J. is not what drives a white supremacist in Wisconsin. But I heard a conversation on The Takeaway this morning featuring a Cody Hickman, founder of Survivors of the Aurora Shooting that will focus on mutual support and healing, and featuring Valarie Kaur, a Sikh America who, in the wake of several attacks against Sikhs in the wake of 9/11 filmed Divided We Fall in an attempt to understand her place as an American viewed with suspicion:



The two very different guests spoke of the feeling of connection between what happened in Colorado and Wisconsin, and of the desire to reach across miles for mutual understanding. Ms. Kauer speaks in the interview about how Sikhs across America feel an incredible connection with each other through their tragedy this week, and she urges listeners to present themselves as supporters of their Sikh neighbors no matter where they are. Perhaps that is a lesson we could think of applying to our entire society whether we personally know gun violence directly in our lives or not -- to think of thousands of our fellow citizens who will die from gun violence this year and the many thousands more left behind in the tragedies of their deaths and to see our commonality. The Manhattan Sikh Association is holding a candlelight vigil tomorrow in Union Square and I am planning on taking my family -- in the hopes that seeing some of the faces represented by each of those little x's will help inspire me to think of what actually can be done to make America a less violent place, a place where our humanity inspires rather than terrifies us.

(no subject)

Date: 7/8/12 17:38 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Unfortunately I'm not sure how the USA *can* rein in the violence in our society at this point. The USA has had a greater tendency to resort to bloodshed than other societies, and even to be proud of that fact. At the very least this continual trend speaks of certain contours of US culture that no decree can alter, and to consciously alter them would require a determined process over a prolonged period of time, which usually the US political elite and mass culture have not been fond of.

(no subject)

Date: 7/8/12 18:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] caerbannogbunny.livejournal.com
Breakdown and fragmentation of social connection will do that. That's one reason why more rural areas tend to have less crime...

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From: [identity profile] peristaltor.livejournal.com - Date: 7/8/12 18:33 (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com - Date: 7/8/12 19:41 (UTC) - Expand

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(no subject)

Date: 8/8/12 11:42 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] allhatnocattle.livejournal.com
Gee I wonder where this tendency comes from?

"Paul Kersy (Charles Bronson) was a nice peace loving man until street-punks murdered his wife...

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From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com - Date: 8/8/12 16:57 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 7/8/12 18:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
One or two of the factors I wish was discussed more in conjunction with gun violence in the U.S. is the level of violence associated and precipitated by the aggressive war on drugs, which also disproportionately affects African Americans.

So as far as constructive ideas on what should be done about gun violence in the U.S.: End the modern era of prohibition.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com - Date: 7/8/12 20:33 (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 7/8/12 18:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
The source of violence in America is not guns, it's disparaging attitudes towards ideological opponents. Fear drives hate. Every hateful remark towards Muslims by a public figure fuels the MO for a shooting in the future.

(no subject)

Date: 7/8/12 18:52 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Unfortunately there is a question of the extent to which the USA's tendencies to violence wind up reflecting also on how populous the USA actually is. It's the third largest country in the world by population, IIRC, and certainly the largest in the Western World. It doesn't have nigh-eternal insurgencies like the Chechens or the Uighurs. The USA also hasn't had to level its own cities the way Russia did Grozny.

The real question to me is in all this why spree shooters seem to have equal ease in every single situation in amassing weaponry for increasingly sophisticated attacks and this keeps not changing. And this is in a context including the Hassan shooting, the Virginia tech shooting, the various domestic terrorist attacks up to and including the guy who wanted to be a miniature Al-Qaeda in Texas....

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Date: 8/8/12 08:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com
I'd tend to agree with your overall point. If someone disagrees with you (not YOU you), or does something you find disagreeable, we are almost rotely taught/trained to think of them in terms of being NOT you, ie, Other. Usually associated with being less-than. And that covers all sides of an issue, coming from "both sides" of the aisle.

Media is a huge contributor to this attitude. It's a sport, and a popular one.

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Date: 7/8/12 18:24 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 404.livejournal.com
I blame the internet. I'm sure some do gooders will advocate clamping down even more on internet sites which they don't like.

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Date: 7/8/12 18:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] htpcl.livejournal.com
They'll pry my CounterStrike from my cold dead virtual-uzi gripping fingers!

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Date: 7/8/12 19:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
The assault on the Breitbart.com headquarters commenced at 9am.

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Date: 8/8/12 17:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
The Internet may actually serve as somewhat of a safety valve. People can blow off steam without actually doing anything violent. At one site, Page complained about racists sitting on their hands doing nothing rather than going out on a shooting spree.

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Date: 7/8/12 18:37 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] telemann.livejournal.com
Image

After the shooting of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords in January of last year, urbanologist Richard Florida compiled several maps to plot the correlations between gun violence, gun laws, and other social indicators. They make for urgent reading after this latest mass-casualty shooting. In Florida's words:



The map above charts firearm deaths for the 50 states plus the District of Columbia. Note that these figures include accidental shootings, suicides, even acts of self-defense, as well as crimes. As of 2007, 10.2 out of every 100,000 people were killed by firearms across the United States, but that rate varies dramatically from state to state. In Hawaii, at the low end, it was 2.6 per 100,000; in New York and New Jersey it was 5.0 and 5.2 respectively. At the high end, 21.7 out of every 100,000 residents of the District of Columbia were killed by guns, 20.2 in Louisiana, 18.5 in Mississippi, and 17.8 in Alaska. Arizona ranked eighth nationally, with 15.1 deaths per 100,000.

With these data in hand, I decided to look at the factors associated with gun deaths at the state level. With the help of my colleague Charlotta Mellander, we charted the statistical correlations between firearm deaths and a variety of psychological, economic, social, and political characteristics of states. As usual, I point out that correlation does not imply causation, but simply points to associations between variables.

Some might think gun violence would be higher in states with higher levels of unemployment and higher levels of inequality. But, again, we found no evidence of any such association with either of these variables. So what are the factors that are associated with firearm deaths at the state level? Poverty is one. The correlation between death by gun and poverty at the state level is .59. An economy dominated by working class jobs is another. Having a high percentage of working class jobs is closely associated with firearm deaths (.55). And, not surprisingly, firearm-related deaths are positively correlated with the rates of high school students that carry weapons on school property (.54).

Image

And what about gun control? As of July 29 of last year, Arizona became one of only three states that allows its citizens to carry concealed weapons without a permit. Might tighter gun control laws make a difference? Our analysis suggests that they do.

The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements. Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).



Source. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/20/gun-violence.html)

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Date: 7/8/12 19:01 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jerseycajun.livejournal.com
In order to make a map that wasn't all one color, it seems they had to use an extremely small variance (0.002%-0.005%).

The problem is that one can make something look a lot more dramatic than it is by zooming in on something extremely close.

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Date: 7/8/12 19:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mahnmut.livejournal.com
Those godless Newyorkers. Why do they refuse to be killing each other!?

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Date: 7/8/12 22:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rimpala.livejournal.com
Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama can't get a freaking break sometimes.

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Date: 7/8/12 18:46 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] politikitty.livejournal.com
I often wonder how much of this is because we are a very diverse and migrant country. Japan and Switzerland have very different gun laws and cultures, but both are fairly homogenous compared to the U.S. Obviously there are statistics out there and models could be run to test that hypothesis, and I could be totally wrong.

While I think our willingness to chart off to another state for college and move across the country for a job is great, I am constantly struck by how difficult it is to build a sense of community after college. Religion is great for this, but we've been leaving the church in droves. (Even if we're only moderately less 'religious') While it's possible to seek community out, it's also fairly easy for people to fall through the cracks and languish in whatever self-constructed delusion they build that would justify such violence.

Ultimately I don't think this is a gun issue, but a mental health issue. I don't think that our society has more mental health problems than others. But our society asks for people to function at a higher level with more stressors and fewer healthy coping mechanisms than other societies. Issues that could be masked in a society where well-being and/or community is forced upon you are much more evident. Yet mental health is not something that can be well treated without a strong support network. The very thing that is making you ill makes you ill-equipped for getting better.

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Date: 7/8/12 19:17 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] underlankers.livejournal.com
Well, the question is what do we use to compare to the USA in such cases? India? China? Russia? South Africa?

I mean people talk about how violent the USA is relative to EU states, and how warlike in general the USA is, but when China engages in military crackdowns in Central Asia against locals who've never accepted their conquest at bayonet point and the Russians level their own cities with carpet bombing, nobody ever talks about the tendencies to violence in Chinese and Russian culture. Even though in the latter case the Russo-Chechen fighting has been going on since the 19th Century with no end in sight.

At the same time the USA also has a distinct history from most of these other states, so you could actually try comparing it to more comparable New World states like Brazil, Argentina, Chile, and Mexico, but that would require recognizing the USA is a New World society, not a European or Asian one, to start with.

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Date: 7/8/12 19:32 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] policraticus.livejournal.com
What do you say to just about every FBI statistic that shows a steady decline in violent crime for the past, say, 30 years?

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-09-19/justice/justice_fbi-crime-report_1_violent-crime-fbi-statistics-property-crime?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I think we can all agree that violence is bad, killing is bad, etc. But America, by just about every statistic you want to cite, already is a less violent place.

The default reaction to our humanity is terror. That is the lesson of history. That we are so much less terrifying than our ancestors should be some form of comfort, even if it doesn't relieve the legitimate horror of human nature.

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Date: 7/8/12 19:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] root-fu.livejournal.com
Gun homicides, gun crime and gun violence are misleading statistics. To gain an accurate view of how useful or successful a gun control program is we must first admit that guns are not the only causes of homicide, crime or violence and therefore to cite such statistics and ignore the big picture represents a gross over-simplification and biased illustration of things.

Homicides, crime and violence with the gun abstract removed are generally the non biased and objective terms. Its pointless to decrease "gun crime" if crime on a whole rises. Its also somewhat pointless to decrease "gun violence" if its accompanied by increases of violence in general.

Its pointless to blame inanimate objects with no will of their own for the actions & choices made by individuals. Eliminating the reason for crime as opposed to the method by which crimes are committed would appear to represent the best approach. Interestingly, no one seems interested in comprehending the reason crimes like these occur or what the contributing circumstances are. Our entire mentality and public consciousness on the topic is to defer whatever blame and responsibility people have in scapegoating inorganic pieces of metal for the deadly and criminal intent of human beings.

The scientific approach would be to rationalize the motivation for these atrocities and draw scientific conclusions which may help us to prevent such in the future. The blame republicans/conservatives/guns/NRA/KKK/illuminati/aliens/freemasons/el nino/HAARP mentality many have where they mistakenly believe all the evils and failings of civilizations can be heaped upon the feet of any single demographic, individual, group or label is unscientific and offers zero in terms of scientific explanatory power or comprehending what the real and underlying issues present are.

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Date: 7/8/12 19:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fizzyland.livejournal.com
Before you dive into David Icke territory, why don't you address the general fact that guns are used in about 70% of American homicides.

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Date: 7/8/12 23:43 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com
I don't think LJ will allow me to post 1.5 million little x's to demonstrate one Department of Justice study's determination of yearly Defensive Gun Use. But that was from 1994, so ymmv.

We do need to talk about how to make our country less violent. It'll be a multi-generational change, though, and the discussion fraught with emotions. It's seems to be okay to be mad enough to want to hurt someone overall, and we need to change that.

I have no idea how to do it though.
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Date: 8/8/12 17:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
On a related note, Jared Loughner pleaded guilty.

As I have said before, it is not guns that kill people, but gun nuts.

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Date: 8/8/12 19:55 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com
In Jared Loughner's case, it was a schizophrenic episode that killed people.

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Date: 8/8/12 18:23 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
I think I cannot think so rationally on this issue anymore. Too much PTSD with guns. I want the violence to stop. So, I try to force myself to face it.

Japan. What are they doing right? Cause they are doing it right.
Edited Date: 8/8/12 18:24 (UTC)

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Date: 8/8/12 20:00 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com
They are a homogenous society. (Not that it's "right" or "wrong", not a value judgment. But it does contribute, imo. They don't face the political and social stressors that we do.)

They value social pressure for certain things.

They place a high priority on outward appearances, ie, honor, etc. It matters what others think of you.

They also have a suicide rate double the US. What does that say about them in comparison to us?

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Date: 8/8/12 20:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com
Just thinking out loud here, because I came across data that surprised me.

Intentional Homicide Rates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

What is up with Honduras? Top of the list at 91.6 per 100,000 people, vs 4.2 for the US, vs 1.2 for the UK, vs. 1.6 for Canada. It's not like Greenland at 19.2 but only 11 intentional homicides -- Honduras had 7100 murders, and over 80% of them committed with firearms in 2010.

Honduras also has mandatory licensing of firearms and a limit of 5 per person. It's not helping, I guess.

And I wonder also, why is the US the center of attention for fixing violence or restraining gun ownership, when clearly Honduras is miles above everyone else in the world in need of help.

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Date: 8/8/12 21:05 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] usekh.livejournal.com
A limit of 5 guns is not what most people would class as serious gun control. What guns are they allowed to have? Ammo capacity? etc etc.

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Date: 9/8/12 17:13 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com
Here (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/08/sikh-temple-killings-preventable-homeland-security) is an interesting article in Mother Jones on the lack of political will to investigate domestic terrorism that has no Muslim connection.
The answer to stopping future events like the Sikh temple shooting isn't to transfer the panic reserved for al Qaeda-linked plots to those involving domestic radicals. Yet in the latter cases, unlike the Ft. Hood shooting, there hasn't been much of a response from politicians other than expressions of grief and sorrow. When a white supremacist goes on a killing spree, it's just another tragic inevitable consequence of living in an imperfect world. When a Muslim does the same thing, we actually expect the government to do something about it.
Edited Date: 9/8/12 17:13 (UTC)

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