[identity profile] sophia-sadek.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] talkpolitics
Until quite recently, the word "homophobia" seemed like an oxymoron to me. I had no sense of how deep the fear actually runs. In fact, I considered it to be a self-referential fear such as the fear of being discovered. People who attack homosexuals are themselves latent homosexuals who fear that others will find them out. Although there may be some truth in this interpretation of the term, it misses a whole body of fear that I knew nothing about until recently.

The Icarus phenomenon of Jason Russell's meltdown prompted me to look more deeply into the involvement of Christian bigots in Uganda. The campaign of Invisible Children to pressure the Obama administration into retaining military advisers in that country reminded me of recent news of American fundamentalist ties to attempts to legitimatize de facto violence against homosexuals in that beleaguered land. I was reminded of how homosexuals in Africa fear being subjected to the vicious treatment of "necklacing" with a burning tire.

My quest for information took me to the work of Jeff Sharlet who became famous for his work exposing the fundamentalist mafia in Washington. Sharlet interviewed Ugandan homophobes to determine the depth of their ties to the Washington mob and to get a handle on the nature of their bigotry. What he found in the former case is that the Washington group has very strong ties to Ugandan homophobes. In the latter case, he found an intellectual basis for bigotry in a thin tome entitled The Pink Swastika by Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams. It is an eye-opening view into the minds of people who fear homosexuality more than homosexuals fear fundamentalism. Until I read the book, I did not think that was possible.

The authors use evidence of sadistic homosexuals at the highest levels of the German national socialist movement to imply that national socialism is a product of homosexuality. They go so far as to imply that the liberal attitude toward homosexuality within the Weimar Republic gave rise to national socialism. They add two and two together to come up with the number three: freedom for homosexuals leads to death camps for Jews.

The most remarkable aspect of their work is that they provide sufficient evidence for a counter argument, but fail to pay any attention to that evidence. They show that the sadists who perpetrated atrocities were merely a fraction of the homosexual population and what these sadists shared with the authors: a contempt for other homosexuals. They also showed that some homosexuals react violently when they are abused, yet they would have their audience abuse homosexuals. Lively and Abrams make Jonah Goldberg appear downright liberal.

Do you fear homosexuals or homosexuality itself? Why or why not?

BTW, Here is a video that ties Jason Russell's organization to the Washington group:

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Date: 10/4/12 15:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vlad-pulov.livejournal.com
"Homophobia" - it is a wrong term.
People, who don't like homosexualism, they don't feel fear, or "phobia". Thеy have an aversion for it, and recognition of harm this strange occurrence of social phenomena.
Maybe it would be easier to understand if to compare it with necrophilism.

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From: [identity profile] vlad-pulov.livejournal.com - Date: 10/4/12 15:20 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 10/4/12 15:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] its-anya.livejournal.com
What is an aversion other than fear? And what harm do they recognise?

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Date: 10/4/12 15:47 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dwer.livejournal.com
you wanna go for the trifecta and compare being gay to bestiality and child molestation too?

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Date: 10/4/12 16:14 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malasadas.livejournal.com
Fine. We'll just call them bigots, then.

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Date: 10/4/12 21:08 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
For real though, I think vlad and other ignorant denizens of Russia have this misconception that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not something you're born with. Their point of view almost makes sense if they view this as a willful debauchery. Almost.

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Date: 11/4/12 04:49 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
People, who don't like homosexualism, they don't feel fear, or "phobia".

Sure, just like Howard Hughes "didn't like" having dirty hands.


recognition of harm

There is no harm in homosexuality. Those who "don't like" it tend to cause harm though.


compare it with necrophilism

Well that's irrational. You've ironically proved homophobia is indeed a phobia.

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Date: 11/4/12 06:56 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] squidb0i.livejournal.com
No, homophobia is the correct term.

You prefer to ascribe biological reactions to force a justification, but it's still just you being scared of what you don't understand.. and worse yet, might like if you tried. *gasp*

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Date: 10/4/12 16:12 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
People who don't like hockey don't try to outlaw it. They don't claim some mythical moral high ground where some vague notion of 'values' is being impinged upon. When you legislate against something, it is not simple aversion. I have no desire to go to a gay bar, because of an aversion to homosexuality? Or, you know, because I'm not into it, just like I'm not into hockey.

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From: [identity profile] allhatnocattle.livejournal.com - Date: 12/4/12 18:16 (UTC) - Expand

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Date: 10/4/12 16:15 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] paedraggaidin.livejournal.com
Well, considering I am bisexual, it would be silly if I feared these things. :P

What I do fear, however, are religious organizations trying to force their doctrines on the whole citizenry, through legislation (e.g. Prop 8), under a thin veneer of "family values" or "protecting marriage," when in actual fact homosexuality in general, and gay marriage specifically, don't affect them in the least.

What I fear is leaving to a popular majority the question of who should have civil rights. Marriage has been held as a fundamental right by the Supreme Court, yet very many U.S. states have banned gay marriage through the medium of popular referenda. It is no different at all than putting "should black people be allowed to attend whites-only schools?" or "should women be allowed to own property?" on the ballot.

What I fear is the demonization of homosexuals as evil, subversive, subhuman deviants not deserving of the same rights and privileges as "normal people."

What I fear is legislation aimed at giving state sanction to discrimination against homosexuals in the workplace and a license to bully homosexuals in the schools.

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Date: 10/4/12 16:45 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cinchntouch.livejournal.com
YAY evil, subversive, subhuman deviants!!!!!!

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Date: 10/4/12 16:48 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oportet.livejournal.com
Do you fear homosexuals or homosexuality itself?

I do not.

Why or why not?

College? Maybe that's a crazy answer, or it could be a common one - or both. No, I didn't hate gays before then, but I never knew one personally up until that point, which changes a lot. These people you speak of that hate and fear homosexuals, I know some - most of which are a few branches above me in the family tree. I don't want to make excuses for them, because I think it's just as ridiculous as you do - but it's just been pounded into their heads, for a lifetime.

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Date: 10/4/12 17:20 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] johnny9fingers.livejournal.com
As a lad I didn't like a cousin of my father's, and assumed it was because he was gay. However I admired my godfather, who was a school friend of my father's, beyond reason, and it wasn't until I was much older and in my teens that I realised he was gay.

Being a bisexual chap who is married and now a father myself I find I hope that my son, young Henry, is happy: gay, straight, transgendered, or whatever. But I'm not afeared of gay folk: envious that I'll never be as fabulous as them perhaps.

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Date: 10/4/12 17:21 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gunslnger.livejournal.com
People who attack homosexuals are themselves latent homosexuals who fear that others will find them out. Although there may be some truth in this interpretation of the term

There isn't any truth to it.

And even if there are some people who do actually fear homosexuals rather than just hate/dislike/distrust (it's a spectrum) them, it's still generally used inaccurately. The fear aspect is not widespread.

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Date: 10/4/12 17:30 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kylinrouge.livejournal.com
There is a psychological effect where people who really rally hardcore against a particular issue have some personal connection to it. Be it their own latent desires, a family member or someone they know, some sort of indoctrination or childhood trauma, when people go and do what they're doing in Russia, America, or wherever, it's a much deeper sentiment than mere distrust or dislike.

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Date: 10/4/12 20:29 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Do you fear homosexuals or homosexuality itself? Why or why not?
I'm a bit of a schizoid which has the fortunate side-effect of insulating me from many social pressures and tropes. So growing up in a fundamentalist church I just didn't get the whole anti-gay thing. People would say things about the gay peoples and I wouldn't understand. I lacked completely any sort of ingrained reaction to the idea or to the people. I mean, it's just people, they can't be that bad. I don't know, I guess what I'm saying is, is that on many things I feel like an alien to those around me, when they're getting all huffy-puffy and I don't get what the big deal is. It has been a recurring theme in my life to the point where my family recognizes that I just don't share in whatever human psychology that drives revulsion, repression or fear of people.

I also didn't believe that all the Chinese were going to hell, because that didn't make any sense and wasn't very fair either. I'm an odd duck considering my childhood.

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Date: 10/4/12 20:34 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meus-ovatio.livejournal.com
Then again, I attribute my general lack of a fundamentalist mindset to a special intervention by the material Creator in order to preserve my soul.

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Date: 10/4/12 20:36 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] muscadinegirl.livejournal.com
Do you fear homosexuals or homosexuality itself? Why or why not?

Nope.

Consensual sexuality is each participant's personal business and sexuality is actually a small part of who and what a person is.

I used to be afraid of it because of religious upbringing then I met some homosexuals and decided what I'd been taught is just so much twaddle.

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Date: 11/4/12 02:50 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kayjayuu.livejournal.com
Fear it/them?

No, why should I?

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Date: 11/4/12 05:04 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yes-justice.livejournal.com
I fear a lack of homosexuals. Homosexuals save America by battling the repressive puritanical influences that constantly threaten our ideals of freedom and liberty. We need that, more than ever these days.

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Date: 11/4/12 07:02 (UTC)
From: [identity profile] squidb0i.livejournal.com
Given how many people thought I was gay in my teen years back in the 80s (sorry Reno dipshits, just a goth), I have a fairly good understanding of how it feels to be treated as they are by pig ignorant bigoted hicks. Bottles thrown at my head from moving vehicles and physical assaults on a regular basis. At least no one killed me before I figured out that I could create an intimidating exterior and ward most such attacks off.

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